Is the Roman Catholic Church the "mother church?"

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Marcia, Jun 8, 2006.

  1. Marcia

    Marcia
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    On another thread, I posted a quote from Sen. Brownback (who converted from evangelical beliefs to the Roman Catholic church) in which he said

    Quote:

    "Joining the Catholic Church was joining the early church. This is the mother church. This is the church out of which orthodoxy and Protestantism came."
    http://tinyurl.com/o97nv


    No one had any problems with this statement there so far. I was pretty surprised at the non-reaction. If moderators want to close down the other thread where I started this (in Current Events), please do. I primarily want to know what Baptists think.

    Do Baptists believe the RC Church is the "mother church?" :confused:

    Do Baptists on this thread have an issue with Brownback's statement? Why or why not?
     
  2. webdog

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    I believe the Church in Acts is the "mother" Church, and I don't recall seeing the word catholic anywhere in Acts.

    I bet EWTN will feature Sen. Brownback on The Journey Home
     
  3. thjplgvp

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    Re: mother church

    Here is a repost of my last post

    Marcia,

    I cannot speak for others but simply for myself. As I have studied Baptist History and church history he is correct. There is not direct lineage between John the Baptizer (who was not part of the church) the church of Jerusalem of which the disciples (apostles) were part of the leadership and the Baptist churches of today. We have a succession of faith not a succession of churches that has been semi charted through the years. We understand that God has never left himself without a witness.

    The RCC of today evolved from within the pure body of Christ of 1st Century Christendom. And when the corrupt part of the church proved convincingly that they were in charge true believers exited to Anabaptist movements of varying beliefs but who for the most part kept the basic tenants of the faith.

    I know this definition will not line up with everyone but it is a general position and not an exact one.
     
  4. Gold Dragon

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    I wouldn't call it that, but I completely understand why Catholics would.

    I would describe the RCC as the western branch that resulted from the mutual East-West schism of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church which finalized in 1054. I would also describe the RCC as the branch from which the Protestant Reformation schismed from. I consider the Baptists to be indirectly part of the Reformation through a reformation of the Anglican Church in the English puritan movement in the 16th & 17th centuries which resulted in many puritan separatist groups, including the early baptists.

    Of course Landmark baptists would disagree with that view.
     
    #4 Gold Dragon, Jun 8, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 8, 2006
  5. LeBuick

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    I believe you are referring to Catholosism becoming the national religion in Rome. However, Paul took the Gospel on the road and had churches in many other places. Peter is given a lot of credit for the Church in Rome and Catholosism. Do we give them credit for the entire prodestant belief?
     
  6. DorthyMontine

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    I say NO.

    I believe the church at Jerusalem was established before the church at Rome. See the book of Acts.
     
  7. Gunther

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    The only church that recognizes catholicism as the mother is the same one that has Satan as its father.
     
  8. Marcia

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    To actually see Baptists agree that the Roman Catholic Church is our "mother church" is pretty startling.

    Maybe I should have asked: "Was the first church the Roman Catholic church" because I would have to say no! The first church was the church founded by Jesus Christ and was not called the Roman Catholic church, and the first churches were the churches planted by Paul and other apostles.

    On the RC Church:
    I think it's more accurate to say the RC Church departed from the teachings of the apostles and the Bible, with the truth being preserved in God's word, which was rediscovered in the Reformation.
     
  9. Gold Dragon

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    It would be startling if we saw that. I haven't seen any Baptist or non-Baptist agree with that statement in any of the two threads you started on this topic.
     
    #9 Gold Dragon, Jun 8, 2006
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  10. Magnetic Poles

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    As was mentioned in the other thread, I think, Marcia, that you are confusing a reference to the Eastern Orthodox or Eastern Catholic church with the generic adjective "orthodox". Indeed, the Eastern Orthodox split from the RCC.
     
  11. thjplgvp

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    RE: church

    Marcia,

    What I am saying is that the system called the 'Church' (Brandon I hope you are reading this) that Jesus started and whom the apostles provided early leadership for was ultimately led by men who were deceived by Satan into accepting paganism, union with state government, the presenting of traditions as scripture, and ultimately making man the speaker for God. From within the system that housed the pure first century church ultimately emerged the corrupt Catholic Church. The church of Jerusalem did not become Catholic, or western or eastern orthodox the system that housed these schools of pagan thought became corrupt. Hence Annabaptists pulled away from the system and maintained their individual autonomy and succession of faith rather than be a part of a corrupt system led by Rome which became the RCC.

    For those who offer a different perspective lets talk.

    thjplgvp
     
  12. rsr

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    The Orthodox would insist it's the other way around.

    I think Brownback, given the context, was indeed referring to Orthodoxy as the Eastern Church, not in a generic sense. His committee has conducted hearings that included the Greek Orthodox Church, so I think he knows what he's doing in discussing Catholicism, Orthodoxy and Protestantism at the same time.
     
    #12 rsr, Jun 9, 2006
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  13. Marcia

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    Well, on the currrent events thread, Magnetic Poles said this:
    This makes it sound like the RC church is the original church. No one will say whether they think that is true.

    Maybe I should ask, When did the RC Church begin?
     
  14. Marcia

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    Double post
     
  15. Magnetic Poles

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    Not at all. There were other churches before the RCC, many of which are mentioned in the New Testament (Ephesus, Phillipi, Laodecia, etc.). There were also gnostic and coptic Christians in the early years of the church that were in no way related to the RCC. That doesn't negate that the Eastern Orthodox and RCC split from one another (How's that, RSR?), and the Protestant Reformation was also a schism from Rome. Of course Anglicanism (Church of England, Episcopalian, Anglican, Methodist, Wesleyan, etc.) was the result of King Henry VIII not being able to get an annulment of his marriage from the Pope, so the RCC is their mother church as well.
     
    #15 Magnetic Poles, Jun 9, 2006
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  16. thjplgvp

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    Re: No one will say

    Marcia asked, “This makes it sound like the RC church is the original church. No one will say whether they think that is true.”


    Thjplgvp wrote, “Marcia, What I am saying is that the system called the 'Church' (Brandon I hope you are reading this) that Jesus started and whom the apostles provided early leadership for was ultimately led by men who were deceived by Satan into accepting paganism, union with state government, the presenting of traditions as scripture, and ultimately making man the speaker for God. From within the system that housed the pure first century church ultimately emerged the corrupt Catholic Church. The church of Jerusalem did not become Catholic, or western or eastern orthodox the system that housed these schools of pagan thought became corrupt. Hence Anabaptists pulled away from the system and maintained their individual autonomy and succession of faith rather than be a part of a corrupt system led by Rome which became the RCC.”

    I am beginning to think I am a voice crying in the wilderness:laugh: :laugh:
     
  17. Magnetic Poles

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    I could be wrong here, but couldn't one trace the RCC back to Constantine making his vision of Christianity the state religion of Rome in the 4th Century A.D.?
     
  18. Marcia

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    I'm not confused on those terms. Brownback was never talking about the Eastern Orthodox Church! He converted from evangelical beliefs to Roman Catholicism (a member of Opus Dei performed the ceremony and interestingly, Brownback's wife did not convert). Brownback said in the interview that joining the RC Church is joining the "early church" and the "mother church," implying that the RC Church is the first and original church.

    But most people who posted in response to this here and on the other thread do not seem to have a problem with this statement. I have a big problem with it, since
    1. The RC Church is not the original church
    2. I would never call call the RC Church the mother church
    3. Luther came out of the RC Church but what he was affirming and proclaiming was in scripture; it did not stem from the RC Church, its traditions, or its teachings
    4. Orthodoxy did not come out of the RC Church; it was revealed through scripture in spite of and contrary to the RC Church
    5. Brownback's statements (not just the one above - see article) are an apologetic for Roman Catholicism that I disagree with
     
  19. thjplgvp

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    MP, absolutely but he simply used the system that was in place.

    It was Constantine who declared he was Ponifex Maximus (High Priest) within the system that started with Christ. The wedding of state and Ekklesiatic authority under one head (him) also he was trying to reunite the western and eastern empires under one state and one religion (east and west had excommunicated each other).

    My original point was that the very system that protected the body of Christ in Acts 15 was totally corrupt by by 325 therefore Anabaptists knew they could not save the sytem from corruption and split.
     
  20. DorthyMontine

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    Excellent comment!
     

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