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Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Yeshua1, Sep 10, 2012.
As defined by "Full Gospel" baptists?
Are you asking is it seperate experience than salvation? Or does the baptism exist today at all?
is it a distince and seperate act of the Spirit, that is evidenced by speaking in tongues?
THis should be an interesting thread! I would like to know that myself!
My pastor (that is not a cessationalist) believes we get all the spirit we are going to get at birth(the indwelling). But I did not speak in tongues until years later after I was saved, was this because I was taught to disbelieve?
These scriptures I am struggling with concerning this..
After Jesus was baptized in water, the Holy Spirit descended on Him. Was this done to seal Jesus with the Holy Spirit as a guarantee of His salvation (as in Ephesians 1:13-14)? Obviously not, because Jesus was not in need of salvation. On earth, Jesus was our perfect role model because He was the perfect human (He was God), and He received the Holy Spirit in order to be empowered for His ministry on earth as the perfect human. This can be demonstrated by following the sequence of events in Luke's Gospel and in Acts:
"When all the people were being baptized, Jesus was baptized too. And as he was praying, heaven was opened and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove." (Luke 3:21-22)
"You know what has happened throughout Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached-- how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him." (Acts 10:37-38)
"Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry." (Luke 3:23)
"Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led by the Spirit in the desert, where for forty days he was tempted by the devil." (Luke 4:1-2)
"When the devil had finished all this tempting, he left him until an opportune time. Jesus returned to Galilee in the power of the Spirit, and news about him spread through the whole countryside." (Luke 4:13-14)
First we are told that Jesus was baptized in water and then He received the Holy Spirit (not as a guarantee of His salvation, but for spiritual empowerment). We are also told that God anointed Jesus with the Holy Spirit and power. Next, Jesus began His ministry after receiving the Holy Spirit and power. We are then told that He allowed Himself to be led by the Spirit rather than deciding on His own what He wished to do. Finally, we see Jesus returning to Galilee in the power of the Holy Spirit after resisting the devil in the desert. So even though Jesus is the Son of God, the above passages tell us that He received the empowerment of the Holy Spirit for His earthly ministry. Notice that Jesus was already "saved" (because He was never "unsaved") when He received spiritual empowerment So don't we need to be saved before we can receive spiritual empowerment? Or do we get it all at once?
See this Baptist denomination; they believe in tongues and all the gifts of the Spirit but not the Pentecostal interpretation of them:
It is clear that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit spoken of in the NT is the I dwelling act of the Holy Spirit in the life of a new believer at the point of justification. It is not evidence by any physical or outward act but is a spiritual sealing of salvation that affirms the believer, provides the Comforter, and assures us of our salvation.
To believe there is a necessary act of physical expression to complete salvation removes the divine ought of salvation and turns it into a humanly function.
This is blasphemous. Christ is God. He never had to receive the Holy Spirit, and didn't. The Holy Spirit descended upon him as a dove symbolically pointing out to others that this indeed was the Son of God, as the Father also verified with his voice from Heaven. He did not receive the Holy Spirit. He was and is God.
Be careful with your exegesis here.
The word anointed here simply means set apart. The Lord set him apart for his ministry at his baptism. It was a public event. He did not need to receive power from God for He is God. Consider John 4:34,
John 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
--As a man Christ had the Spirit of God without measure. That is because He is God.
Taking away from the divinity of Christ is blasphemous and that is what you do here.
He always had access to power. It is a matter of semantics. He told Peter, when going to the cross, "Know ye not that I could have called 12 legions of angels from my Father." He had untold power. It was a matter of him deciding to use it. (12 legions = 72,000)
Jesus is God; He is the author of our salvation; everything we have comes from Him; He is our Creator, the sustainer of our very lives. Without him we are nothing. Only one who is saved is able to be indwelt by the Spirit, filled with the Spirit, baptized by the Spirit, empowered by the Spirit. First you must be born again.
I read over that quickly ...but it sounds alot like the way our church is going!
Funny how you missed this statement...
"These scriptures I am struggling with concerning this.."
Could we get it all at once (at salvation) and just not realize we have it(Baptism for power to witness)? Because if we are in a chuch that does not preach full gospel (EVERYTHING that Jesus paid for on that cross)...then how are we to walk it out?
I was saved young, but ignorant in many things..in unbelief in many things. When we grow in the Lord we realize who we are in Christ, and about Christ in us.
As salvation we have all that we need--all of God that we possibly could have and will have. The rest is up to us in a process called sanctification. It comes through a daily study of His Word and daily time with Him through prayer. Fellowship with believers (the local church) is also important as is our witness to others. These are the basic things that a new believer needs to concentrate on in order to grow.
There is no subsequent blessing. The believer is "baptized in the Spirit" at the time of salvation. He needs to baptized in water by immersion after that. Other commands related to the Holy Spirit:
Be filled with the Holy Spirit. This is for witnessing especially, or proclaiming the truth of God.
Ephesians 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
The Bible also says:
Grieve not the Holy Spirit.
Quench not the Holy Spirit.
The most important thing is to quietly yield yourself in daily obedience to the Lord according to His Word, trusting that He will fill you with His Spirit as you walk in obedience to Him.
I agree with this.
As I have said, In don't believe any of the gifts mentioned in the NT have ceased, but I strongly disagree with the Pentecostal doctrine.
A better question is "Is full gospel type baptism of the Spirit for ANY age?" and the answer is big ABSOLUTELY NOT.
No one has EVER been baptized by the Spirit the way Full Gospel folks proclaim it.
No one EVER spoke jibberish and jerked around and fell in the floor and were slain in the "Spirit" the way these folks claim.
The baptism of the Spirit is for POWER TO WITNESS; power to make disciples of the nations.
One thing I'll say about all the extreme supposed manifestations of the HS: Frenzy is the work of the devil.
Certainly not as full Gospel advocates define it. (I hate that term "full Gospel," as if the death of Christ for sin and His resurrection were not enough.)
(1) The fullness of the Holy Spirit and the baptism of the Holy Spirit are two different metaphors for the same thing. Note that the events of Acts 2 are prophesied by Christ to be the baptism of the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:5), but then when the event happens the disciples were said to be filled with the Spirit (Acts 2:4).
(2) In every single case where either one are mentioned, the purpose is not to speak in tongues (the sign of the baptism of the Spirit, according to Charismatic doctrine), but to serve God. Note the other cases in the Bible where the metaphor "filled with the Spirit" is used: Ex. 28:3, 35:31, Luke 1:15-16 (evangelism), 1:41 (prophecy), 1:67 (prophecy), 2:4 (evangelism), 4:8 (preaching), 4:31 (evangelism), 9:17-20 (preaching), 13:9 (rebuking sin), 13:52-14:1 (evangelism), Eph. 5:18 (music ministry). Note that in only one of these 12 passages (I'm sure there are more) is tongues even mentioned.
Is there a difference in Spirit within and Spirit upon in the Bible? Because many in the OT had Spirit upon, but not Spirit within, right?
At Pentecost The Spirit batized the whole church as God's ordained institution.....as was pre-figured here:
I'll answer this when you answer whether or not you think that tongues is the sign of the baptism/fullness of the Holy Spirit, a question which I've asked at least a couple of times of you, but which remains unanswered.
Fair enough! I guess neither one really knows the answer to the others question!
The Bible says....
Luke 24:49 "And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: But tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with POWER from on high."
Acts 1:8 " But ye shall receive POWER, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."
Acts 2:39 " For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call."
Acts 2:3 "And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them."
Acts 10:44 " While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word."
Acts 19:6 "And when Paul laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied."
Acts 8:14-16 " Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that the Samaria has received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive tth Holy Ghost: (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in teh name of the Lord Jesus.) THen laid they their hands on them and they received the Holy Ghost."
Each time the Holy Ghost came upon they spoke in tongues, can anyone explain this away? In Acts 8 it does not say they spoke in tongues but Simon SAW something manifest, didn't he? You can not SEE the indwellling Holy Spirit in a person, right? So what did Simon see?
THis is why I ask the question is there a difference in the indwelling Holy Spirit and the Spirit upon?