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Is There a Difference Between Being Saved & Offering Your Life as a Living Sacrifice?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by The Archangel, Mar 29, 2008.

  1. zrs6v4

    zrs6v4 Member

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    I may be but I thought that some have greater faith than others. Jesus said, " If you had faith like a grain of a mustard seed, you could say to this mulberry tree, be uprooted and planted in the sea, and it would obey you."
    doesnt that say your faith grows or there is different levels of faith? I may have been wrong, but there has to be different levels of faith? but God only needs a little faith to save you, correct? I agree with you other than that and it makes sense to me. faith has no measure.

    So basically you say you must surrender the things you are aware of, but as time goes on you become more aware of different things to surrender and thats where people fall off because they can't give up those extra things that come up when they begin to have things reveiled? I kind of have the same understanding, if thats what your saying. This also explains how we continue to keep surrendering ourselves daily and things we find out that need to be let go.

    Let me ask you this, what if theres one thing you can't let go in that initial time of surrendering? Or does this only fall under the 10 commandments? I am not speaking for myself, but just for knowledge. Say someone has a lieing problem and gets witnessed to and wants to be saved and knows lieing is wrong but not willing to let the sin go? Now the same situation happens, but to an alcoholic in exchange for a liar?
     
  2. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Hello again, zrs6v4.

    I have a few minutes before going out on evangelism, so I'll try to help you. I've gone back through your four posts, and noticed something that makes me ask: to what extent have you formed your view expressed here on the Word of God?

    I suggest something that I have done a few times with various subjects. In an inexpensive Bible, not your usual one, read through the entire NT or even the whole Bible, marking with a highlighter everywhere that you find that has to do with dedication. If you do this with a neutral mind, no preconceived notions, God will wonderfully teach you.
    The 100% trust in Christ at salvation is trust that He will save you from your sins and keep you out of Hell. It has nothing to do with your bank account, your possessions, your bad habits, your level of dedication to the Lord (Who you haven't even believed in yet), etc. It strictly has to do with you as a sinner and Him as the Savior.

    The bank account only has to do with your salvation if you think having a good bank account makes you a good person. If someone thinks, "I give lots to charity, so I should be all right, but I better pray to Jesus just to be sure," they are not trusting in Christ as Savior.
    The business about "I know you (Jesus) can make something of my future life to benefit your kingdom," as you put it, is not included in the Gospel. Study the places in the Bible where the Gospel is clearly discussed (1 Cor. 15:1-8, Gal. 1, etc.), and you will find nothing like this. When we witness to folks about Christ, we have no right to tell them, "God can use you in His kingdom." (I'm not saying you would do this, but it almost sounds like you would.) That's not in the Gospel. The Gospel is about how Christ died for our sins and rose again. It is a terrible mistake to tell a sinner anything other than what the Gospel clearly is about.

    The thing that people should want taken care of when they get saved is their black heart of sin, not their goals in life. If someone before being saved does think about their goals in life, they should realize that it is impossible for those goals to please God. And I've never known a lost sinner in America or Japan to say, "Hey, I want to serve God." You have to get saved before God puts the desire for service in your life.
    I disagree completely with your statement, "to be saved we must be aware to sin no more (purposely so to speak, not that we won't) and follow Christ and want to, correct?" Once again, this implies an ability that a lost sinner does not have. Christ does not save us because of our desire to sin no more. Christ saves us because we come to Him as poor lost sinners who know we cannot save ourselves.

    If a lost sinner I was working with were to say to me, "I want to be saved but I don't want to serve God," I would say, "Serving God is the least of your problems. Don't even worry about that now. You need to be afraid of the sin that enslaves you and the eternal Hell that awaits you. After you trust Christ as Savior, then we'll talk about whether or not you should serve Christ."

    Then, after the person trusts Christ as Savior, their desires change because they are born again. At that point, the Holy Spirit will make them willing to serve Him. I've seen this happen over and over again. Being born again changes you so that you can serve God and please Him, whereas before salvation you could not.

    Now after salvation (not to receive salvation), God does not allow for 10%-99% committment, all that He wants is 100%. We do not belong to ourselves anymore, for we are bought with a price (1 Cor. 6:19-20), must take up our cross (willingness to die for Christ, Matt. 16:24-25), and are to offer our bodies as a living sacrifice.

    Sometimes people seem impressed with my dedication in being a missionary. They seem to think that since my wife and I left family, a good job, friends, the homeland, etc., to serve God here in Japan that there is something special about me. My answer is no, my dedication is the very minimum that every Christian should have. It doesn't matter if you are a plumber or a missionary, everything you are and have belongs to Jesus Christ. In coming to Japan all I did was simply obey His will, and that is the minimum. Any Christian who does not surrender 100% to Christ and His will is stealing God's property--himself or herself--and is an unprofitable servant (Luke 17:7-10).

    I've written in detail hoping to help you think these things through. I have to run get the Gospel out!

    God bless.
     
  3. zrs6v4

    zrs6v4 Member

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    1-First of all thanks a lot for the help. I numbered your comments so I may be clear with what I am commenting. I dont say thats my idea of the gospal and I would never get that deep with a person I am trying to introduce Jesus to. I have only talked to those with much more knowledge so I may learn the depth that someone needs to be saved for sure, which I have tonight learned is the simple gospel message. I have only been active on this site for 2 nights.

    2- I have 4 bibles which I have been studying faithfully for about 4 months. I never studied the bible up until 4 months ago and to be honest I have read 3 books in my lifetime and hated studying. I prayed and prayed about it and still do and God has given me the love for reading and studying the bible I beleive. that is good advice on reading through the whole bible and marking every line that has to do with dedication, and I will keep that in mind (may start tonight). I have to say when i first started reading I was lost, but I felt led to the New testament and I have read a lot of it over and over again and its amazing that when I am speaking to someone how versus come up and explaining them explains my points. I do feel limited in language because I try to speak only Gods word when talking to people and not mine.

    3- This honestly scared me when I first read it and honestly it still does. Are you saying I dont beleive in Christ? That worries me a lot. Why do you say that? I came to him at age 11 in repentence and asked him to forgive me and be my savior and come into my heart, knowing he was the only way to heaven. I know Christ is the only way to Heaven and I tell that to all I know and meet. I trust him and no-one second. When I first got back into church 6 months ago I was clueless and living worldly and it was all about money, cars, girls, clubs, drinking, smoking, and etc.... the first day I went back to church I had to force myself and The pastor was speaking of material things, (my old life). after a few weeks I started to doubt my salvation, that I was saved and began to worry. I didnt know if I had Christ, and I didnt know how to trust Him any more and went a few nights without eating or sleeping because it worried me so much. I knew I couldnt do anything about it and that he had to be the one, I asked and begged forgiveness maybe 5 times in one week because I was unsure if i had ever been saved based on my actions. I knew I was a wretched horrible sinner. Your right I had no clue other than I needed Christ and His help whether I already knew him for not. Finally after weeks of non-stop prayer and asking for mercy and feeling unworthy and helpless I began to feel better and just started to put it in his hands knowing I couldnt do a thing to change how I felt but He could. And thats when I can really say he started to give me a new heart, and mind and quiting smoking, drinking, clubbing, loving materials and all the things I did that were wrong I wanted to stop, not that I had to to be saved, I wanted to and I still do find things that I am wrong about like this discussion. I know I am coming off here in being really stupid and wrong about a lot of stuff but I am really not, I have just had this issue and thinking going through my mind the past two weeks. I do know I am just a child and stand no chance in this world without Christ, his fellowship, and daily meditation.

    4- bank accounts have nothing to do with salvation and Ive known that from age 12. I was just saying that some people are so in love with there fortune they can't take their worship of money and themselves off of the throne and put Jesus. thats what I meant. I agree 100% Sometimes people say something but there heart is in a different place, that is my whole worry with this whole issue. They may ask forgiveness and say father I want you to be Lord but does there heart really want the same thing as they say? Who knows I guess. forget that point thats not our worry but between them and the Lord

    5- Yea that is stupid, wow that sounds like a something someone would say from a cult. 1- beleive,2-know you are a sinner 3-repentance, 4-confess with your tongue Jesus is Lord. is the basics and I got carried away earlier


    6- all I can say is yes again

    7- Thinking back to myself, yes you are write that does fall under desires in growth to ask God every day his prayer in our words. Sometimes Myself I feel like God has blessed me with his knowledge and a new set of eyes so fast that everything seems to have happened at once. I know by the little we have talked about you probably think I am this huge slanderer of God's word but I try to always limit myself to his word in all situations. I wasnt aware of this at my being saved/recommittment but I have been blessed with this new heart over time. and after all Hes taught me I feel like I know nothing at the same time.

    8- that is good, I will remember that in the future. After all of this and all of the recent witnessing opportunities I have had. I have always kept it basic and never pushed anyone. My thing here that I have had problems with is when I explain the gospal, what Jesus did for us, and how to be saved and the person doesn't disagree with me and beleives it but does not want to do it right away like you'd expect, and in some case Id see the person for a month and they dont ever bring it up, then whats your advice?

    9- Yea I really can tell some stories here with how Christ has pulled me through my disaster of a life I had going on, thats for sure. Its amazing how I was talking 6 months ago how I would love to get a million dollars and go into a club and now I wouldnt go in there for a million dollars. that blows my mind and it seems so natural.

    10- yes, every single day

    11- I agree and thats the thing I am going through now. Can I ask how you knew He was calling you. Was it a deep deep desire to go to Japan and be a full time missionary?

    12- I was thinking about it all day at work and this helped me greatly and I struggled with this for awhile. I always have kept it basic and you dont have to worry that I mislead anyone. My reason for even going to this on here is because I have been confused with terminology I guess and the true meaning of some of this stuff. I always feared that there were many people who were being mislead for not knowing enough about what they were getting into and needed to know more but that is apparently 2 different subjects as you clearly brought to my attention. Keep the gospal simple and espress the true meaning and its importance and it would be wrong to talk about sacrifice in a new beleivers salvation. As you can see in the title of this thread if they were hand in hand, which they are not, then it would be necessary.

    The more I think about this the more I realize how stupid it is. We dont go around trying to make people servants we go around trying to lead them to Christ so they may be saved. Then Christ does the rest. What a burden off my shoulders.
     
  4. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Amen!! You are certainly on the right track. When I was called to preach, my sainted preacher father called me into his office, and after hearing me say that yes, I was definitely called to preach, he took his Bible and said, "Son, always base everything you preach on this Book!" And I've always tried to honor that promise I made him.
    I'm sorry my comments scared you. I certainly didn't mean to do that! And I never question someone's salvation, thus calling them a liar. I don't believe in that, though I do believe in getting people to examine their own hearts.

    From your comments in this post, you sure sound to me like you are solid on salvation. Concerning whether or not you were saved when you were 11, I'd have to do pastoral counseling to help you work through that, something obviously we can't do here! (I don't mean counseling like I'd help a mental patient, just listening and giving good advice.) But I believe if you were saved when you were 11, and then you got away from the Lord, then for all those years God was gently leading you back to Him. Some on the Baptist Board would disagree, and demand instant fruit in the life of a Christian to prove he is saved, but I don't believe that.

    I do believe that if a believer gets away from the Lord, he will be disciplined by the Lord as it teaches in Heb. 12. And God is so gracious and good that the process may take years before the Shepherd brings His sheep back close to Him. In my own case, I got away from the Lord while I was training in Bible college to be a preacher. God got my attention with a sports injury resulting in knee surgery, and in the hospital I was completely sure what was going on and how to get right with God, especially when I read "lift up the...feeble knees" in Heb. 12:12!
    I don't think in the slightest that you are a slanderer of God's Word! From your first posts on this thread I had you pegged as one who is trying to work through some things, and I prayed that I'd be able to help you with that. Keep it up! "Seek and ye shall find!" (Matt. 7:7-8).
    I advise you to seek the fullness of the Holy Spirit. Check out our disussion about here: http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=48135


    I believe the Lord calls each of His servants in a special way, because we are each special to Him. Note the calls of people in the Bible: Moses by a burning bush, David by anointing with oil, Elisha through another prophet, Isaiah by volunteering, Ezekiel by the moving of the Holy Spirit, Matthew by the quiet voice of Jesus, Paul by a vision. The common thread is that each was sure of the call. I

    In my own case, my call to preach at age 18 was like that of Ezekiel, with a definite movement of the Holy Spirit sending me forward at the invitation in a special meeting. My call at age 20 to be a missionary to Japan was through a still small voice in my heart asking me if I was willing to go to Tokyo. In both cases God gave me assurance that He was the one calling.

    God will always lead clearly those who want to be led. For my experience about how God answered nine years of prayer for His will in a wife, check out the article on our website.
    Amen and amen! As John the Baptist said, "He must increase, but I must decrease."
     
  5. Rubato 1

    Rubato 1 New Member

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    I hate to interrupt JOJ & z's discussion.:eek:
    I believe Christ's mention of the mustard seed is the point that though you don't feel you have 'a lot' of faith', it makes no difference. I probably should not have said 'no degree' of faith; rather, the degree makes no difference. Either there is faith or there is not. after our faith has been tested, there will be more the next time.
    On your other comments, either you trust Christ completely or you don't trust him at all. There are just some things you don't know yet, which the Spirit will work out in your life as you mature. Any one who is saved is willing to let sin go deep inside, becaus that is his new nature. However, he still battles the flesh and bad habits and will until he dies. This is just a hurried response, as I have to run...
     
  6. zrs6v4

    zrs6v4 Member

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    1-

    1- I have always done that as I said, and that was the first thing I told myself, If I can't teach based on the bible then I can't help because I am without words. I have had an extreme amount of one on one bible study just me and fellowship with God. I can notice if I go by two days without reading the bible I can notice now because I lose strength. I felt God wanted me to begin in the new testament. When I started to read I was lost and began at the beginning, but I felt a nudge to begin with Jesus. I then started to pcik things up and after re-reading for a few months I can explain every parable like nothing, and I beleive thats the work of the spirit. I havent had any of them explained, but based on my life I related to them and saw the answers He was giving. Its truly the work of God and I am the first to admit I need much more time and I dont think anyone has overstudiend the bible because the spirit always has something to teach.

    2- Hey don't worry. I forgave you from the first second and everytime now I get a fear I look at God as what He was trying to get threw to me. I also thanked Him for your advice and prayed for your missions. Its just like I said it kind of brought back memories of when I first came back to Christ 6 months ago and I had doubts, I am a hundred times stronger now and dont look in the wrong areas like I did for answers. Its just then I trusted Jesus so much more than myself it was rediculous and I still do. My doubts all go to myself and I can't change myself without His touch after a certain point it seems. if you understand what Im saying. All I can do is give all I have and He seems to do the what seems impossible. HE has over and over in my life with every bad habit I had (which seems like every one the world has to offer).

    3- I lean towards being saved at age 11 but not having a sturdy family and group surrounding me to carry out my committment. I honestly was never taught and in either my mother or fathers house were good habits or God. Not to blame them b/c everything has its ultimate plan. I simply never knew what to do next. I think this is a huge problem today with parents by the way. Not setting examples and guiding their children after salvation. The parents seem to think that their kids are saved so the work is done, which to me is foolish. obviously. I kind of see that in my past. I would not have once denied that Jesus was the only way from that point further no matter where I was at in life. Once I knew, I knew. But I also see the other baptist points after reading 1John it would seem I wasnt saved. I also look at my dad who says he trusts Jesus and is saved but lives in the world. This is where all my arguments began thinking people thaught they were saved, but based on 1 John I began to question. I read that book many times and took pages of notes on evidence. I do think John is speaking of mature Christian feelings rather than Christians who are still immature and havent been revieled what John is explaining. I always said when you are saved its like a pregnancy. you dont see the evidence at first, but in time and trust and keeping faith to your promise and His, you begin to see evidence. In preganancy the dr says your pregnant and you beleive but you dont see it right then as time goes on you start to see the evidence. I think this is where a lot of doubts from immature Christians come from, immaturity.

    4- Yeah like I said I was as far as far gets, but now I am closer to Him than most I beleive because He has done so much for me. I wouldnt do those things I did, again but I am in a sense happy that because of them I look at everyone in a positive way instead of horrible people because I knew I was good but in the right circumstances we all can do the horrible. I know now that there is no way I would go back to where i was. As I stated there is no amount of money or a thing the world has to offer to exchange for what I have now (which is no money and a broken down car, and a good relationship with Christ) Even though I dont have a lot of money and a cheap car I always have what I need to get by and my car always comes through. I think some of those who are great in this world have to take a great fall to be great. Not saying anything but I beleive all the great servants of the Lord in the Bible had downfalls and not small ones?

    5- I always say from experience "ask and you shall receive, seek and you will find"
    I never understood that even though I beleived it until a few months ago when I began to receive the blessings according to His will.

    6-I know the be saved for a person is the complete work of the Holy Spirit, and we just plant the seed as the bible is clear about from the beginning to the end. I will check out that thread, thanks.

    7- yes

    8- I have naturally been lead in a lot of directions and come to find out after the fact that they were key steps. All of this God does in two ways I feel conviction and the funny thing is that the devil fights it so much. Something may seem so small and simple, but when true conviction arises the smallest task seems so scary and like a huge step and when you do it its instant releif. God has most definetly changed my desires around 180 degrees from all about me to all about others. Like I said I desire to do mission work, desire to write, desire to teach confidently and truthfully God's Word (pastor I beleive in the future. I am already certain in my change in majors. These are all what seem to be specific goals that I never had but gained in the past few months and most of them seem impossible and scary. I am speaking of writing (which I already have hundreds of pages of my experiences and learnings) and mostly being a leader of a church. I want to and desire to preach but I have a speaking barriar I have carried my whole life that I have to beat and want to. It is an anxiety and only occurs with preplanned speaches. I would feel like I was missing something in life if I didnt accomplish these goals. I dont know how they are going to happen but I also feel they are in Gods time.

    faith, trust, prayer, study, worship, obedience, patience, following through- all seem to be the key in a successful Christian Life to be a good servant of the Savior
     
  7. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    I haven't quoted everything you said because you weren't really asking me anything. But thanks for the great testimony about what God has been doing in your life. Keep on keeping on for Him, and may He use you all your life for His glory! :jesus:

    All of this will take some education, as you realize. If you want to preach then of course you need the theological education, and I trust you are transferring to a good school for that. I know about feeling like a poor speaker. My first sermon took about ten minutes, max! Being a better speaker will come with practice.

    I've done some writing (a couple of books in English, a couple in Japanese, some articles), so I want to encourage you in that. I suggest you minor in English literature, and that will help you polish your style, etc. :type:

    My grandfather was a famous author, John R. Rice. If you'll look on our website (look at my profile for the address), you'll find my first book called The Making of a Soul Winner, and in the first chapter is a section where my grandfather gives me advice about how to become a writer. Enjoy!
     
  8. zrs6v4

    zrs6v4 Member

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    thanks for the advice which is always uplifting from one who has been throughn it and I am taking notes.
     
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