Is there a difference...

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Joseph_Botwinick, Dec 29, 2004.

  1. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick
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    between 5 point Calvinism and what I here people here call hyper-Calvinism? Or are they equating Hyper-Calvinism with 5 point Calvinism?

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  2. Bro Tony

    Bro Tony
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    From my experience their is a difference between the two. In our region there are those who claim that calvinism is just another word for the Gospel. And there are 5 pointers who believe calvinism to be a theological system to understand how the Gospel is brought to man. That seems to be the difference around here.

    Bro Tony
     
  3. El_Guero

    El_Guero
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    hyper-Calvinism (sometimes called Supra-lapsarianism and I have heard it called 6 point)
    Believes that God for-ordained some to Heaven and some to Hell ... before creation (or the fall).

    However, 5-points indicate that there are some ordained to Heaven from before the fall. And by corallary the others are destined to Hell from before the Fall.

    So the distinctions are paper thin.

    Often Believers that agree with the Sovereignity of God as expressed by Calvinism, are best represented by what has been called "new-light" Calvinism. Stated something like, based upon His forknowledge: God ordained that the Holy Spirit would give those that "would" accept Christ the Spirit and the ability to choose Christ ...

    Hope this helps some ...

    God Bless
     
  4. ILUVLIGHT

    ILUVLIGHT
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    Hi Joseph;
    I've always define Hyper Calvinism as going to far with your own logic.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  5. Primitive Baptist

    Primitive Baptist
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    As one who is accused of advocating Hypercalvinism, let me explain the difference. Hypercalvinists, according to the popular definition, do not believe the Gospel is an offer of eternal life. In other words, if you are not involved in "missionary" endeavors begging sinners to "accept Christ" you are a hypercalvinist. Supralapsarianism and Sublapsarianism are only peripheral issues in the question of hypercalvinism. Primitive Baptists believe the Gospel is a proclamation, not a proposition. Therefore, according these theological "experts," we are Hypercalvinists.
     
  6. Primitive Baptist

    Primitive Baptist
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    Also, you must make use of the "altar call" system or you are hindering evangelism. :rolleyes:
     
  7. prophecynut

    prophecynut
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    That's what I call Calvism in a nut shell.
     
  8. Joseph_Botwinick

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    I think I agree that the Gospel is a proclamation, not a proposition. However, I would note that the reason I believe Calvinist Christians should engage in Missionary works and witnessing is because they are being obedient to the commands of Jesus in the Bible. Would you agree with me here?

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  9. Primitive Baptist

    Primitive Baptist
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    The preaching of the Gospel is a proclamation of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ and what He accomplished therein. So already, Arminians are preaching a false Gospel because they claim that Jesus died for the whole world without exception (as opposed to the whole world without distinction), and salvation can be there's if they will do this, that, or the other. They claim that Jesus offered Himself to us when He offered Himself to no one but the Father. The Gospel should be preached far and wide for the benefit of those who eventually embrace it through faith and baptism. According to 1 Corinthians 15:2, there is salvation (deliverance) in keeping the Gospel in memory (cf. 1 Timothy 4:16). Peter told the Jews on one occasion, "Save yourselves from this wicked and untoward generation." He did not tell them to save themselves from eternal damnation because only God can do that.
     
  10. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Joseph;
    How is it you see the Bible as a proclaimation when we read this invitation.
    Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
    An invitation to a proposition. Do you just deny that it exist? Do you feel this shouldn't be in scripture? Maybe you feel that it says something other than what it plainly says.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  11. Monergist

    Monergist
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    That's what I call Calvism in a nut shell. </font>[/QUOTE]We just can't have a God that sends poor undeserving sinners to Hell, now can we? :rolleyes:
     
  12. Monergist

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    You show me a "new-light" Calvinist that says that and I'll show you a Classic Arminian.
     
  13. whatever

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    Hi Joseph,

    It really depends on who you ask, but here's my attempt. Arminians believe that, since we are responsible, our eternal destiny is determined based upon our choices, or our foreknown faith.

    Hyper-calvinists (better, sub-calvinists, or fatalists) would say that since our eternal destinies are determined by God according to His good pleasure, and not according to anything in us, and therefore we are not responsible for what we do or don't do. They typically oppose mission efforts and evangelism.

    Real Calvinists, of which I am one, believe that our eternal destinies are determined by God according to His good pleasure, and not according to anything in us, and that we are also responsible for what we do or don't do.
     
  14. whatever

    whatever
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    You show me a "new-light" Calvinist that says that and I'll show you a Classic Arminian. </font>[/QUOTE]That sounds like a Norm Geisler type "Calvinist" to me. I think they want Arminian theology without the label. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised, but ...
     
  15. El_Guero

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    Monergist ...

    To help you understand the term, "new-light". "New-light" is used to describe evangelical Calvinists like those of the Great Awakenings. Our Father blessed our ancestors with these revivals, and they have become known as the Great Awakenings.

    Now then about those classics ...
    Who was Calvin's son in law?
    Why do so many people fear reading Calvin?
     
  16. rc

    rc
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    Whatever,

    Amen on your post... Norm, J.P. Moreland, Chuck Smith, Hank Hanagraff, Dave Hunt... Semi- Pelagians all of them.

    Post Tenebras Lux
     
  17. johnp.

    johnp.
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    Hello Joseph_Botwinick.

    I believe they are. I am a supralapsarian and always considered myself orthodox as do the infralapsarians.
    There seems to be a push to make us seem more extreme by innuendo as if that will make us smell worse than we do already. Or maybe we are just ignorant of the doctrines. Or maybe there are too many Lone Rangers who think they can decide for themselves what God says without asking Him for a run down on the meaning.

    Whether the definition below describes hyper properly I do not know, is there a definition?

    1. [Hyper-Calvinism] is a system of theology framed to exalt the honour and glory of God and does so by acutely minimizing the moral and spiritual responsibility of sinners . . . It emphasizes irresistible grace to such an extent that there appears to be no real need to evangelize; furthermore, Christ may be offered only to the elect. . . .
    2. It is that school of supralapsarian 'five-point' Calvinism [n.b.—a school of supralapsarianism, not supralapsarianism in general] which so stresses the sovereignty of God by over-emphasizing the secret over the revealed will of God and eternity over time, that it minimizes the responsibility of sinners, notably with respect to the denial of the use of the word "offer" in relation to the preaching of the gospel; thus it undermines the universal duty of sinners to believe savingly in the Lord Jesus with the assurance that Christ actually died for them; and it encourages introspection in the search to know whether or not one is elect. [Peter Toon, "Hyper-Calvinism," New Dictionary of Theology (Leicester: IVP, 1988), 324.]

    That in bold cannot have the tag 'Calvinism'. That's Arminianism. I don't know who Peter Toon is but he don't know doctrine either and he is writing books. :cool:
    I believe it wrong to assure anyone that Christ died for them. Whosoever believes will be saved, that is all we need say, and Jesus died only for them. There will be no judgement on the lost for not believing that Jesus died for them, He didn't. Sinners have a duty to do God's revealed will or ask for mercy or pay the consequences. No man can believe that Christ died for them until they are born again. That's light. That don't make me a hyper-Calvinist. I'm sure Calvin would have said this?
    Faith never encourages introspection. Faith is love and love encourages one to want more. To look into the face of God with great joy needs no introspection for assurance.

    All of them? Yes all of them in their many different ways. Jesus told us to go and irritate people and He explained why. He decided that He would let us, with Him, call our brothers and sisters home. A great blessing.
    He also uses His word to harden those He has decided to harden. That don't make me hyper either. Just scriptural. :cool:

    johnp.
     
  18. billwald

    billwald
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    The people who argue against the 5 points don't trust God to do what is right.
     
  19. Wes Outwest

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    NOT TRUE! We simply do not agree with the five points! We know with everthing in us that God is doing what is right, and don't need any points to know that!
     
  20. rc

    rc
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    Then quit following the five points of Arminius Wes!
     

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