Is there a difference?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by skypair, Mar 24, 2008.

?

Is there a difference between...

Poll closed Apr 8, 2008.
  1. ...confessing your sins unto salvation and

    100.0%
  2. ...dying to self unto salvation?

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. skypair

    skypair
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    I was watching John Ankerburg last night. His guests were D. James. Kenenedy (now deceased), John MacArthur, and R. C. Sproul. Ending the show, John A. asks R.C. "In 45 seconds, what would you tell a viewer to do to be saved?"

    R.C. said, "Confess your sins, repent of your sins, and trust in Jesus..." My thought was that we do all that AFTER we are saved. --- that first we must repent of self or, what we call "die to self," and turn to Christ. THEN we are saved and confess our sins daily repenting of those we can while trusting in Christ for power to do so. Do you see the difference? Is there an important distinction?

    So the poll question is, "Is there a difference between

    1) "confessing" your sins for salvation and

    2) "dying to self" for salvation?

    That didn't come out well (first time I've done this). Just pick the one you believe to be true.

    skypair
     
    #1 skypair, Mar 24, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 24, 2008
  2. John of Japan

    John of Japan
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    I've never in my life heard "dying to self" equated to salvation. I have heard this concept preached from two passages. Paul said, " I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die" (1 Cor. 15:31-32). This passage is most obviously not referring to salvation. Paul was willing to die for Jesus Christ, and took up his cross daily, knowing that he might be killed at any time for the name of Jesus Christ.

    Again, Christ said in John 12:24, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit." So in order to be useful to Jesus Christ as His servant we must die to self--forget all our own desires, wants and needs, and sacrifice them to Him.

    When thinking about leaving all behind to be a missionary, I wrote a poem about it:




    Deny Thyself

    By John R. Himes




    What sense of loss there always is
    When leaving self behind.
    What unfulfilled desires must die,
    Hopes lost within the mind.

    The heart may cry, AIt is enough,
    My life can lose no more.
    My fondest dreams are swallowed up,
    My strength crushed to the floor.@

    Yet still the kind Creator moves
    His hand across the life,
    And takes impurities away,
    And cancels sinful strife.

    Yet still the precious Savior takes
    The vessel broken up,
    And shapes it very patiently
    Into a golden cup.

    The joy that comes from sadness deep,
    The happiness from pain,
    Will far exceed the strongest hopes,
    And make earth=s pleasures vain.

    So tremble not to lose yourself,
    And live for Christ alone.
    The life you live for others
    Will forever be your own.
     
  3. 4His_glory

    4His_glory
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    I am sorry I really don´t understand what you are saying. Are you saying that repentance is not necessary for Salvation but something the believer does after he is saved?
     
  4. skypair

    skypair
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    Thanks, John. How about 1Cor 15:36-37? What about the imagery of bpatism, 1Cor 15:29, etal.? Are they talking about daily death to self or about being saved "up front?"

    Here's the point ---- you can name and confess sins until you are "blue in the face" and never really get 'em all. Isn't the problem "who you are" and not "what you've done?" Isn't salvation about Who Christ is and not about the Example that you are trying to follow by all your confessions and repentance?

    I find some "tension" between what R.C. said and what I believe the gospel says. To me, turning from sin (the first option) isn't enough. My very nature as a sinner has to be replaced with another nature, Christ's!

    I'm sure you agree. My flesh (which defines my nature on account of the fall) has to die. My spirit, "infected" as it is by the flesh, has to put to death and resurrected by a whole new Spirit. Are you with me so far? Treating the "sins" with "confession" and "repentance" is like treating cancer --- killing the pain but not the disease. But the good news is, the cancer is OPERABLE!" We don't have to "maintain," we can "excise" it!!

    skypair
     
  5. skypair

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    Yeah, it was a very poor thread, wasn't it?

    I'm saying that repentance FROM sin is not enough. In fact, some call repentance from sin/crime "rehabilitation." Would you feel like you were "saved" if you were still in prison learning to be "good?" But how about if your sentence was "paid in full" and you were given a new name and a "wealthy" Father?

    I'm sorry for the confusion, but, IMO, some of it is "inherent" in the 2 approaches to salvation --- confession vs. death. And maybe it is just in the "expressions" of the same thought. But I know when I was saved, I knew that merely "confirming my condemnation" (confession) wasn't enough. And repentance (quitting sinning) was beyond my power to promise. What I needed to do was just surrender myself to Christ -- treat my life as nothing -- ask that He "quicken"/rebirth me to do His will.

    skypair
     
  6. TCGreek

    TCGreek
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    Skypair, I too watched that episode of the Ankerberb show. RC could have been clearer, IMO.

    At any rate, I don't believe a person has to confess his sins in the conversion experience. I see no scriptural evidence of that.

    This is what I see: "repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ" (Acts 20:21, KJV).
     
  7. Allan

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    Amen, that is how I see scripture stating it to. :thumbs:
     
  8. Amy.G

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    I really appreciate your posts guys. Sometimes when I read about all the "stuff" a person needs to do or understand in order to be saved, I think to myself "maybe I'm not really saved", because when I was saved I didn't know anything except that I was a sinner in need of a Savior. I didn't understand much of anything. I didn't know what repentance was (although that's what I did) or any of the other "words" that Christians use. But I know that God has saved me because His Spirit testifies to me that He did!

    :godisgood:
     
  9. John of Japan

    John of Japan
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    I think 1 Cor. 15:36-37 is clearly talking about our bodies being the seed for a resurrection body. This is a similar metaphor, but the subject is different.

    The image of baptism is that of dying with Jesus and thus being forgiven for sins. I don't see it as dying to self in the sense of deeper dedication.

    As for 1 Cor. 15:29, your guess is as good as mine on the meaning of THAT verse!! :confused: :confused: But at a minimum, it's talking about water baptism and not dedication, as in Paul's phrase "I did daily."

    I agree.

    RC may be coming from the perspective of Lordship salvation. In my experience LS advocates don't like to talk about the possibility of further dedication after salvation. If further dedication as needed after salvation, then I guess Christ wasn't "made Lord" at salvation. I think Rom. 12:1 belies that, since it is telling "brethren," not lost people, to offer their bodies as a living sacrifice--an act of complete dedication.


    I'm almost with you. Where I would differ is in your statement that "my spirit, 'infected' as it is by the flesh...." I would amend that to say soul instead of spirit, being a trichotomist. I believe that the spirit of a saved man is what is made alive at salvation, and thus pure, and the place within us where the Holy Spirit lives. The soul and body are still infected by the sin nature.
     
  10. gb93433

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    All I see is, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved..."
     
  11. TCGreek

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    I take this to mean the same as Acts 20:21, though worded differently.

    I don't believe Paul would've told the jailer one thing and the Ephesians another.
     
  12. TCGreek

    TCGreek
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    Yes, I believe we need to keep that distinction between what is required in Salvation and what is required in Sanctification.
     
  13. skypair

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    I am also trichotomist. But it has always been my that it is the soul that is justified (conscience) first in salvation. That soul is justified by God forever while the spirit (our mind, emotions, and will) are progressively sanctifed by God's Spirit in us. Yet our spirit is still subject to worldly considerations, notably family, job, society, etc.

    skypair
     
  14. skypair

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    Thanks, TC. I agree. I was 16 and it was suggested that Satan had placed spiritual IED's in my "path" that, unless I had Christ, might "blow" my whole life. I needed to put my life in His hands, not my sins.

    skypair
     
  15. John of Japan

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    Then we have our definitions switched around. Your definition of spirit is how I define soul. I delineate the spirit as that part of us which can communicate with God, the soul as that part of us that can communicate with other people, and the body as that part of us that can communcate with nature. (Oversimplifying, I know.)

    Consider about the spirit that it is what is mentiioned in connection with prayer (Matt. 26:41, 1 Cor. 14:14-15, etc.). Bu you probably don't want to derail the thread with a trichotomy discussion.
     
  16. skypair

    skypair
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    Ugh, it's too late for that! :laugh:

    I know I'm "backwards." Even Dr. Rogers wouldn't agreewith me. BUT which aspect of God does communicate? Which one convicts? Which was sent to dwell in us? Which is our "Guide?" Which one groans in unutterable words that we cannot pray? These are all the work of the SPIRIT, right? So why doesn't our "communicative" spirit correspond to God's "communicative" Spirit and communicate back?

    I have this theory, John, that most people associate them as you do and that leads to confusion, not clarity.

    Consider: God is Father/Head -- IMO, Conscience/Soul of the trinity. Does not the "orientation" of the conscience normally determine what thoughts of the heart and the intents of the flesh? And mainly, John, I don't find anything in scripture that denies this paradigm.

    Think about this -- "The soul that sinneth, it shall surely die." Does our mind, emotions, and will die because we sin? NO! This is Reform Theology to say that we have no mind (and especially will toward God) until we are regenerated!

    But I think you would agree that in sin our conscience has taken a step away from God and toward self. Our "moral compass" is pointing away from God! But our mind/spirit -- "the verdict is still out" on God. And it is PRECISELY by the Spirit (mind, emotions, will) that God reaches us!!! God's Spirit convicts our spirit -- our spirit is NOT dead! We aren't "brain dead" as they say! We are "soul" dead according to scripture, right (Ezek 18:20)?

    John, the logic is "pristine!" We must be "justified" by God in our soul (OT) or we can't be sanctified -- we must be sanctified in our spirit by the Holy Spirit (church age and MK) or we can't be glorified -- we must be glorified bodily by Christ (pretrib rapture and postMK rapture)!!

    Should we start another thread on this? I've tried before but I suppose I'm not as good a communicator as the Spirit though I "strive mightily!" :laugh:

    skypair
     
    #16 skypair, Mar 25, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 25, 2008
  17. John of Japan

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    It would be fun to discuss, but I'll have to take a rain check. I preach at a youth camp Friday and Saturday, along with having to get ready for Sunday, so I'll not post much for a few days.
     
  18. skypair

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    I'll start a thread in a few days then. God bless and we'll pray for you. :praying:

    skypair
     
  19. John of Japan

    John of Japan
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    Thank you. :wavey:
     
  20. rbell

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    Good grief, man...where are your priorities?




    :D :D

    God bless @ camp.
     

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