Is there a retitle suggestion for Calvinism and Arminianism

Yet, it is an accurate description of "your" doctrine of grace that remains unrefuted as how it is otherwise.

 

:laugh: Rhetorical devices are used to avoid getting to the truth in a claim and are a fallacy. They are only an acceptable practice to those who are trying to avoid and distract from getting to the truth in a debate. :laugh:

But thanks for making my point that you don't know how to or care to debate with the proper objectives of drawing out the truth.

Later

 

Team Jihad ...... LOL Nice turn of phrase! :thumbs:

 

Truth does not really matter to you, for you well know that God is not "deterministic" and so also says the Calvinist that you rail against.

You are in essence, using a weasle word to argue against a position that you dislike in order to gain some ground. It is backfiring on you, and so you fight against the backfire.

Better to present an ACTUAL truthful argument and then let the chips fall where they may. Then you don't have to design "I like mine better" versions of the truth -- which is not in fact truth at all according to virtually any definition of truth (save the most radical post-modern one, where truth is fluid, i.e., not really truth but perception).

 

Hi Benjamin, I believe your point is valid, if Calvinism is not hidden in arcane and obscure terminology, it would be rejected. Calvinism makes God into a monster. According to Calvinism, God punishes the lost for choosing to sin, even though they are unable to choose anything else.
To defend this, they say non-Calvinists call God a monster. Which of course is simply another fiction, another effort to shift discussion away from Calvinism.

They want to talk about your behavior, you use too large a font, rather than Calvinism, again shifting the discussion away from Calvinism. They run the same plays over and over without any discernible respect for the truth.

And finally they run away from their own doctrines. Calvinism proclaims whatsoever comes to pass was ordained by God. Now the weasel word is ordained. What it means is predestined, which means Calvinism proclaims exhaustive determinism.

What the Bible actually teaches is God causes or allows whatsoever comes to pass but is not the author of sin, which is to say He allows sin to occur but does not cause or predetermine that we will sin.

Bottom line, with a clear discussion of the Bible, it would be easy to fix Calvinism and Arminianism and come up with a Biblical doctrine. But no one one this forum is willing to actually engage in such a discussion. All of them would rather stick to their doctrines of men and nullify the Bible, or so it appears to me.

 

and you whine when someone "attacks" you....


uh oh, incoming post from Van about me attacking him. Really, just more attacks from Van to Calvinists. Now saying that Calvinist "nullify the Bible."

Why don't we leave the cheap shots alone.

 

Van and Benjamin...kindred spirits.....:1_grouphug: that is nice to know!

The calvinist God is to Van......a monster.....again.... Van there is no other God so you might want to reconsider your ways and false teachings.

 

Looks like only you and Van...and maybe Moriah, and Jerry might think so.
Benjamin......do you ever refer to yourself or those in your local church by the biblical language of the elect? Are you uncomfortable saying believers are Called to be saints.
When is the last time you took comfort , or thanked God for His electing love ,and mercy?

Or are you uncomfortable with the biblical terms of grace, covenant ,foreknown?How do you explain these sections of scripture.
Eph1;3-11,2 tim1:9, romans 8:29-30,jn6:37-44.Jn 17....

or do you avoid them completely and say it is all a mystery.

 

Romans is a wonderful passage on the election of God, and His choosing mercy, leading right into Romans 12:1 that many love to quote.

But Romans 12:1 is never really understood unless the "Therefore" is known as meaning it is He, and He alone that chose (elected) us.

Note also Romans 11:5 that there is also at this present time those whom He has elected, and it is according to His gracious choice, not ours.

Now the "Therefore" has significant meaning, and we worship God for it.

Perhaps this is why we have so much trouble in the church "getting" believers to live for God, because they think they chose Him and they are subsequently apathetic and not living according to truth.

- Peace

 

It humbles us, it is all in Gods Word, and to Him be ALL Glory.

 

This statement is a reflection of the false perception many (if not most) Calvinists have regarding the non-Calvinistic view of Election. We gladly affirm that God's election is by HIS Grace and according to his sovereign will. To suggest otherwise is misrepresentative to say the least.

Man's will (whether determined or free) has little to do with God's Elective purposes as revealed in scripture.

 

That God, by an eternal and unchangeable purpose in Jesus Christ his Son, before the foundation of the world, hath determined, out of the fallen, sinful race of men, to save in Christ, for Christ’s sake, and through Christ, those who, through the grace of the Holy Ghost, shall believe on this his son Jesus, and shall persevere in this faith and obedience of faith, through this grace, even to the end; and, on the other hand, to leave the incorrigible and unbelieving in sin and under wrath, and to condemn them as alienate from Christ, according to the word of the Gospel in John 3:36: “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him,” and according to other passages of Scripture also.

Maybe I'm misinterpreting it, but it seems to say that God will determine to save those who shall believe.

 

Right. God Elective purpose involves his choice of Israel to bring the messiah and the message of redemption to the rest of the world. So, he elected Israel and certain individuals within Israel for a noble purpose regarding the redemption of mankind. Within Israel he chose some to be prophets or apostles, while others he chose to remain in their rebellion and be hardened to the truth of Christ so that they would crucify Him. That is all apart of God's elective purpose in choosing Israel. He also chose to ingraft the Gentiles through faith in Christ. Thus, whosoever believes will be saved. Again, that is His elective purpose. He has predetermined what will become of anyone who believes. He will seal them by his Spirit, adopt them as his son and conform them into the image of Christ. That is His elective purpose.

All of these things are consistent and do not change regardless of my independent will. I don't believe scripture was intending to suggest that God looks down the corridors of time to see if I would believe in him and then chooses to elect me to salvation. Instead, scripture is teaching that God has elected (1) to bring His Messiah and His gospel truth through Israel and (2) to save whosoever (Jew or Gentile) believes in that gospel appeal.

 

How is the bold part not by looking ahead to see who will believe? I'm seeing you are saying he will elect to save anyone that believes. How does He know who the ones that believe are?

 

That’s okay if you want to weasel on the word “Deterministic” …even though all 5 points of the TULIP vitally hinge on determinism. But, I’ll excuse you from the title of “Doctrine of Deterministic Pre-selected Grace” as being accurate for you since you object to it, I kind of figure you for a non-Calvinist at heart when the rubber meets the road anyway. :thumbsup: I’ll just suggest the title of “Doctrine of Pre-selected Grace” to meet the "truth" of your doctrine.

 

Thanks, no doubt.

You notice that too, eh. Well, when that's all they got...but you and I know what they say about the argument of those who have nothing left resort but making a play on such a thing and try to beat it to death with Ad Hominem...while trying to take the tread down with it.