Is there absolute truth?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Joseph_Botwinick, Apr 8, 2004.

  1. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick
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    It appears to me that in my conversations with many Baptists throughout my years on this planet that there are many different opinions as to what absolute truth is on many different subjects, including Christian Theology, Politics, Conflict in the SBC, etc...

    For example, I could say something like, "I believe that x and y is true because of this experience in my life". Another person might say that is not true because of a totally different experience in their life. We could throw barbs back and forth and probably even find evidence to back up a certain belief, and keep arguing and arguing. But, the question would never truly be resolved most times because we would still not be persuaded. And even if we were persuaded, is there not a possibility that we are being persuaded by emotional arguments and we find out later that it wasn't as absolute of a truth as we once believed it to be?

    All that is said to lead to the following questions:

    1. Is there absolute truth?

    2. What is the standard for absolute truth?

    3. Is it possible that there are shades of gray for everything and no absolute truth for anything?

    4. What is the standard for living and doing right and wrong for the gray areas?

    5. If we argue that the foundation of absolute truth is the Bible and the Holy Spirit, why is it that most Christians who claim to believe the Bible and have the Holy Spirit leading them (aka: Priesthood of all believers) cannot agree as to what absolute truth is?

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  2. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    The TRUTH is not an idea nor an ideal.
    The TRUTH is not a concept nor a meditation.
    The TRUTH is not an action nor a result.
    The TRUTH is the God/Man: Jesus.
    Do what you can to meet Him.
    You shall know the Truth,
    and the Truth shall set you free!

    [​IMG]
     
  3. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick
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    Ed,

    Are you saying that once a person meets Jesus, that they then have absolute truth? If so, why do so many people who claim to know Jesus cannot agree as to what absolute truth is?

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  4. Daniel David

    Daniel David
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    Joseph, before we get any further, allow me to quote you:

    "It appears to me that in my conversations with many Baptists throughout my years on this planet..."
    __

    My response:

    Please don't limit your experience to this planet. Please share about your visits to other planets. I dunno, perhaps you have too much Star Trek in you.
     
  5. Joseph_Botwinick

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    Daniel,

    Point made. Now that we got that out of the way, would you like to go further and answer the questions?

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  6. Daniel David

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    Seriously, the issue is one that used to really frustrate me. I doesn't really anymore.

    You asked:

    1. Is there absolute truth?

    2. What is the standard for absolute truth?

    3. Is it possible that there are shades of gray for everything and no absolute truth for anything?

    4. What is the standard for living and doing right and wrong for the gray areas?

    5. If we argue that the foundation of absolute truth is the Bible and the Holy Spirit, why is it that most Christians who claim to believe the Bible and have the Holy Spirit leading them (aka: Priesthood of all believers) cannot agree as to what absolute truth is?
    ___

    My answers:

    1. Absolute truth must exist. Our universe was created with order and absolutes. God declared to us what truth is. His very nature demands that absolute truth exist.

    2. The standard for absolute truth is God himself. Now, he chose to give us the perfect revelation of who he is. Therefore, it is accurate to say that the Bible is our standard for absolute truth. God never does anything contrary to the Bible. Whatever the Bible says, is what God would say because the Bible is what God said.

    3. No. There are shades of understanding. Nothing is gray with God. It is all black and white. Note that the Scriptures state that we will be judged as to what we did to see whether our works were good or evil. There is no middle ground.

    4. I think you would need to enlist several things here.

    a) is your attitude right in doing it
    b) are you doing it for the glory of God
    c) do you know you should be doing something else

    5. I think all Christians do recognize absolute truth. There is no question that the Bible is explicitly clear as to many, many things. However, some things are not as clear.

    For example: does the Bible teach who the exact identity of the 'sons of God' in Gen. 6 are? No. However, it is absolutely that the record in Scripture is absolutely true about them.

    Everyone brings a certain amount of baggage with them into the interpretation of the Scriptures. That is why we must constantly be seeking understanding.
     
  7. Joseph_Botwinick

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    These are good answers Daniel. Let me follow up a bit:

    If we are all being led by the Holy Spirit, shouldn't our understanding of absolute truth be the same and not shaped by our baggage of our old life? Doesn't scripture say that we would be transformed by the renewing of our minds? I could certainly understand how absolute truth could be hidden from the lost who do not know God? Indeed, there are several parts of scripture, I think, which refer to their eyes being closed so that they could not see the truth. But, we as Christians, should have our eyes open, correct?

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  8. freeatlast

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    Brother when you get done with this can of worms you can open a bait store. [​IMG]


    1. Is there absolute truth?
    Yes without a doubt, but not all truth is absolute and no one holds truth in its absoluteness except God.

    2. What is the standard for absolute truth?
    God Himself. Jesus said that He was truth and He was the word. A standard is the example or guide. We live not by bread alone but every word that comes from the mouth of God. So truth is not limited to a single part of what God holds, but the whole. While one part may be true, absolute truth requires the whole of itself to exist.

    3. Is it possible that there are shades of gray for everything and no absolute truth for anything?

    No. We may not hold absolute truth because we are imperfect, but there is absolute truth in everything. What one may call a grey area is only grey in that the absolute truth is not known. I do not have to comprehend absolute truth for it to be absolute. The fact that God is perfect requires absolute truth for all things, I just do not hold the knowledge of all those things.

    4. What is the standard for living and doing right and wrong for the gray areas?

    Faith. The bible clearly points out some things and others it leaves some question with each individual. That in no way means there is no absolute truth. It means that not all has been given us and we are to live or lives as we understand the truth about that area with a clear conscience. Scripture says that what so ever we do that is not of faith it is sin. For one eating meat is sin and another it is not. Both living in the faith that they have making what they do truth yet lacking the absolute fullness of truth. So our safegurard is faith. For one it is sin to drink coffie. That makes it truth. For another it is not sin to drink coffie, and that makes it truth for them if exercised with a clear conscience (faith). Both living in the amount of faith revealed and both holding truth by the faith that they have. Truth in the individual is violated when our conscience towards God is violated.

    5. If we argue that the foundation of absolute truth is the Bible and the Holy Spirit, why is it that most Christians who claim to believe the Bible and have the Holy Spirit leading them (aka: Priesthood of all believers) cannot agree as to what absolute truth is?

    Because we are at different levels of faith. While truth is absolute to God since He is the same yesterdsay, today, and tomorrow, the truth we hold can change or progress and yet be absolute in a given moment of time because we exercised it in the faith that we have. That is not to suggest that because I hold something that is spelled out as wrong it becomes truth. Faith is not a personal belief about a matter, but a conviction that is spawned by the word of God through the Spirit, but not all are at the same level of faith.
     
  9. Joseph_Botwinick

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    If not all are at the same level of faith, then how do we know if something is absolute truth or absolutely wrong? What if I believe x and you believe y, and you convince me that y is true, but then we find out later that I was orginally correct in the first place?

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  10. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    No.
    Jesus is absolute Truth.
    Absolute Truth is Jesus.
    There is nothing more to know about
    Absolute Truth then our blessed Lord
    and Savior: Messiah Iesus.
    May His blessed name be praised Forever!

    [​IMG]
     
  11. freeatlast

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    I am not saying that a particular issue is holding absolute truth. One question was is there absolute truth and the answer is yes. I may only hold, and do, part of it. The part I hold is absolutely true,but it is not absolute in that there is more to hold. For instance God is love. However I do not understand perfect love. I still hold truth. Another says also God is love and they too hold truth, but they understand more baout that love then I do. Both hold truth that is absolute inwhat they hold, but neither holds absolute truth on God's love.

    In the case where a single issue is not spelled out and it seems one way to one and another to someone else, both can hold truth about the issue and not follow the same belief. The factor is faith. As long as they do not violate their conscience they both hold truth but they just do not hold it in its absolute understanding which I stated only God has. The lack of absoluteness in our life does not make the existance of absoulte truth void. It only means that when I hold truth it is absolutely true, but not absolute truth. So if x is not mentioned as being sin, and I understand that, and yet you do not understand because you are weak in faith then both can exercise their faith within the parameters of truth revealed and still be holding truth, they are just not holding it in absolute form. So when you ask how can we know something is absolutely truth or absolutely wrong. No one thing is absolute truth. It can be absolutely true, but not absolute truth. The same with wrong. As long as a person in the faith can do what they do with assurance/faith they are living in truth it is absolute to them about that issue.
    Again God holds absolute truth, but we can hold truth and when holding it it is absolute. Faith determinds if what we hold is truth. As we grow and are renewed daily our faith will do the same giving us a bigger peace of God's absolute truth.Yet what ever truth we do have at any given moment is absolute since truth can only be truth.It is just not all we could have.
     
  12. Tim

    Tim
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    JB,

    IMHO, #5 is the toughest question--I struggle with it myself. I don't believe that people are more doctrinally correct because their spiritual walk is better. I don't think it has to do with a "level of faith". More likely it is a level of study, and a mind willing to explore all options without preconceptions which will lead one to the most thouroughly Biblical doctrinal positions. Many spiritual men throughout history have had very different doctrine. So are only the ones we agree with truly spiritual men? If you or I believe that, we had best get over ourselves.

    In Christ,

    Tim
     
  13. pinoybaptist

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    I Agree with this statement, Ed.

    Pilate asked, "what is truth". And Truth was right there standing in front of him, but he does not recognize it because he is dead in sin and trespasses and therefore cannot see, cannot hear, cannot respond.

    Truth was right there walking around in his area of authority, and he didn't care to find out. Much better than him was his centurion who rushed out of his command's hq to speak to Jesus about his servant.

    Truth walked on this earth, and the whole earth preferred to remain in the grip of a lie and lies.

    Jesus Christ is the Way, the TRUTH , and the Life. No man cometh unto the Father but by Him.

    He is the Way. That is, the Father in Heaven laid open a Way by which He will bring all His elect to Heaven and that Way is the Son. He will draw all His people to His Son and to no one else. His Son and no one else will bring them all home to Him independent of where they may be in time, independent of preachers and preaching.

    He is the TRUTH. Let God be true and every man a liar. He spoke what He heard the Father say. He taught what the Father taught. He sought whom the Father wanted sought, and saved whom the Father wanted saved, losing no one of the elect, before His time, during His time, and after His time. His doctrine is TRUTH. His Person is TRUTH.

    He is the LIFE. Apart from Him one is dead, apart from Him one is as limp as a rag doll spiritually, though he may act lively and spritely physically. Apart from Jesus, one is dry, brittle.

    Hallelujah, What a Savior !
     
  14. BillyMac

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    Among all of you scholars, I am nothing. So that being as it is, just ignore my input here, but I must respond nonetheless with what I believe.

    I believe that YAHWEH IS the absolute truth. We being human cannot look on Him and survive. Likewise we do not know the absolute truth. (Now we see through a glass darkly.)

    I further believe that to strive to know the absolute truth before our time to know what that is, is like Eve who said: Adam eat the fruit of this tree.

    Filtering my experiences through Christ Jesus allows me to know what truths have been revealed to me and this truth only means what it does to me. You cannot experience my truths as I know them to be and neither can I experience your truths as you know them to be, and yet, both of these truths are from the same source and represent a part of a whole that neither of us know, nor can we while we remain in this world.

    Now, I know that to some of you that is an over simplification and it is not the expounding of great words of wisdom, but this is all that I am meant to understand and because of this fact I cannot concern myself with the whole absolute truth.
     
  15. poncho

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    Maybe, some people like myself...being led by the Holy spirit into absolute truth or all truth takes longer than others. For myself (I can't speak for others) The spirit is only offered so much to work with at a time. Sometimes I offer everything and sometimes I hold things in reserve. I like to hang on to some baggage while tossing some other out right away.

    It's give and take with me, and I expect is for others also. Ultimatly I think we all come to a point of understanding according to our abilities and our willingness to give up baggage to gain understanding.

    See how much learned...well okay...I gave it a shot.

    Whenever I find myself asking me...deep questions like this, I fall back on faith in Jesus. He hasn't let me down yet.

    I may not understand everything that is, because I'm not ready to except it, or I'm just not able to understand at this time. But, I keep trying, and that must count for something.

    Hope your not totally confused now. It may still be a long way home yet with questions that will never be answered in this life. That's why I look forward to going home I expect the answers will be there for all of us.
     
  16. post-it

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    The only way to know if absolute truth exists is to be able to define it. If it can't be defined, then it may still exist; but can't be known for sure. It requires "faith" to believe in Abs Truth.

    Man is saved by his faith; not by knowing if absolute truth exists or not.
     

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