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Featured Is There Really Power in Your Prayer?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by righteousdude2, May 8, 2012.

  1. righteousdude2

    righteousdude2 Well-Known Member
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    Thanks....

    ....I couldn't have said it any better than you. I like both the A and the Message Bibles because the language doesn't bog ones brain down, nor does it lose its meaning. It also allows those in this day and age to see the depth of the meaning of what the writer of that verse or chapter was trying to convey from the heart of God, through their quill, and to the hearts of the people, on that day and time.

    The "thee's, thou's, thy's, shalt, begot's" of the KJV are well and fine for a studied and learned person of the Bible, but it turns off the regular reader. The message needs to be clear, and not put people to sleep, but still let people know that Jesus is the Son of God, and I do not see this translation losing a beat.

    It is just preference, and while some may prefer other versions, I prefer these versions.

    Again, thanks for your support of the Message Bible.
     
  2. seekingthetruth

    seekingthetruth New Member

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    The problem is that when we "retell it in our own words" that our 'religious' beliefs get added to God's Word. The verses used in the OP of this thread from The Message are an example. Eugene Peterson gave the verses a Charasmatic (WoF) slant by interpreting it as being about the "power of prayer" instead of the true subject of church discipline.

    And, it wouldn't matter what subject or Chriatian sect we are talking about. If one person rewrites the Bible then that rewrite is going to reflect his/her own beliefs. A Bible written by a Penecostal and a Bible written by Calvinist will give two distinct spins on scripture, and more than likely have many contradictions.

    So I would have to disagree with your last statement that "such paraphrases have more of our own interpretations than actual translations do, but nevertheless magnify the Savior behind the words.", because changing the Word of God is a sin, and if The Message were the only Bible that a young person read, they would be reading the Word of Peterson, not the Word of God, and would learn much false doctrine, as proven by the text in Matthew 18:18-20.

    It is spiritually dangerous to change the meaning of the Bible to reflect one's own beliefs.

    John
     
  3. seekingthetruth

    seekingthetruth New Member

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    Peterson completely changed the meaning of the verses in your OP.

    That is just wrong Dude, we can't change the meaning of the Bible and magnify God at the same time.

    John
     
  4. righteousdude2

    righteousdude2 Well-Known Member
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    Got Ya!

    I appreciate your input...however, I have to disagree with you. I do not see this verse teaching a WoF doctrine. It says to me that the business of the church is prayer, and that when we pray, we can be assured that God is listening, and that he will answer.

    That doesn't take away the fact that all prayers are SUBJECT to interpretation by God, and according to His divine will, the answer will be given. I fail to see where this version is telling me that God will do as I tell him to do.

    Maybe I'm just not Calvinist enough to see your concerns; however, you need to know that in the eyes of a Wofer, I'm not in their camp either. You would know this if you read anyone of my three books, especially Thorn Daze.

    I am neither Calvinist, Wof, nor any other doctrinal slant/leaning. I see myself and my interpretation of God's word in a realistic view, always knowing that whatever God does; it will be in full accordance with His will for my life, and the life of those who trust in Him and look to Him for their individual and collective needs while on this earth and faithfully navigating that narrow path.

    I firmly believe that there is absolutely nothing God can't do....however, whatever he does, will be in full accordance with His will for my life or those I pray for/with. I also believe, that God will not act until we ask! However, we must also believe that what we ask for, no matter how many join us, or how much faith we exhibit or don't exhibit, the answer will always be in accordance with what he has in the plan for us according to where we are on the narrow path. He just needs us to pray. As Paul exhorted us, we are to pray without ceasing, and leave the driving up to him...

    I believe that the path is not only narrow, but filled with its trials and spiritual/personal difficulties. And we encounter these difficulties, and go to Him in prayer, it will be ultimately Him who determines how and where he takes us beyond that point or place in the path/life.

    I fail to see where the Message Bible misses the point that I just shared. However, I see a much clearer version of the Word of God on the pages of this version. All versions were transcribed by men, and are therefore, subject to their interpretation/slant in doctrinal views. It is up to the reader to be balanced enough in their faith to apply the word accordingly. ALL of us will one day face judgment, and some of that judgment [in my opinion] will deal directly with how we misread and misunderstood what He was trying to get us to understand. That is the risk we all take, and no one person, or the version of their Bible is not subject to God's final judgment. :thumbs:
     
  5. seekingthetruth

    seekingthetruth New Member

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    I agree with every thing you said here about what the Bible teaches on prayer.

    However, that teaching does not come from Matthew 18:-18-20, which is solely about church discipline.:praying:

    John
     
  6. seekingthetruth

    seekingthetruth New Member

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    Here is what Albert Barnes wrote about verse 19.

    "Again I say unto you, That if two of you ... - This is connected with the previous verses. The connection is this: The obstinate man is to be excluded from the church, Mat_18:17. The care of the church - the power of admitting or excluding members - of organizing and establishing it - is committed to you, the apostles, Mat_18:18. Yet there is not need of the whole to give validity to the transaction. When two of you agree, or have the same mind, feelings, and opinion, about the arrangement of affairs in the church, or about things desired for its welfare, and shall ask of God, it shall be done for them. See Act_1:14-26; 15:1-29. The promise here has respect to the apostles in organizing the church. It cannot with any propriety be applied to the ordinary prayers of believers. Other promises are made to them, and it is true that the prayer of faith will be answered, but that is not the truth taught here".

    I agree wholeheartedly with his statements here.

    John
     
  7. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    I don't object to paraphrasing per se. I do object to a paraphrase calling itself a translation. Paraphrasing without exception ends up as interpretation. Though interpretation is sometimes unavoidable in translation, it should not be a principle to always interpret, as paraphrases do.
     
  8. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    My main concern is when Christians used in the past living bible as main/primary version, ditto for say the message!

    As long as realise what their use and purpose should be used for OK to have them, BUT please not as your main edition!
     
  9. seekingthetruth

    seekingthetruth New Member

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    The question in this thread is about "power in pareyer"

    The power is in God, not our prayers.

    And, the scripture quoted in the OP was misquoted.....it is not about prayer, or God's resonsibility/obligation to answer prayer.

    The verses quoted in the OP were directed to the Apostles as to how to govern the church. Specifally, how to to handle problems concerning discipline of members.

    It is NOT about the ordinary prayers of believers.....it is about church discipline only.

    For anyone to state that these verses apply to general everday prayer is promoting heresy, and taking away from the leadership of the church.

    Make all the excuses you want to, but this scripture DOES NOT constitute a magic spell where God is obligated to grant every wish we ask....(as long as two or more touch and agree)

    OK, pastors....am I wrong?

    John
     
    #29 seekingthetruth, May 14, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: May 14, 2012
  10. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    have to take into account the ENTIRE scriptures as regarding prayer and answers!

    Its indeed tru that since prayer is dirrect connect to God, that Christians MUST rely upon their relationship tot he Lord for our daily strenght and having Him supply/provide what is required to have His will done in and through our lives...

    Its still God who is sovereign, He is NOT obligated to answer anything that is against his will and purposes, and we have the full assurance that whatsover we ask Him that IS in His will for usto receive, we shall indeed ahve him grant it to us!
     
  11. seekingthetruth

    seekingthetruth New Member

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    I do take in the entire scriptures, and I agree that God commands us to pray, and that He answers prayers.

    But this particular passage is NOT about that!!!!!!

    It is about church disciple. When two or more meet in prayer to decide what to be done about a church matter, Jesus says He is there also, and that whatever decision they make (in prayer) He will honor.

    It is not about the "power of prayer" or the promise to answer prayers, it is simply about two or more people making a decision about church business and Jesus promising to honor it.

    And yes, there are plenty of scriptures about prayer, and God answering them....but this is not one of them!!!!

    This scripture is so misquoted, and misused!!!!!

    John
     
  12. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    I agree with you. This scripture is about church discipline. Another verse that is misused frequently is:
    1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

    Here Paul is speaking about defiling your body with a prostitute, but it is used to preach against everything but that.
    ......And my power just went out. :confused:
     
  13. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    God always answers my prayers.

    Sometimes the answer is No.

    Sometimes the answer is Not Now.
     
  14. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Several have said that this passage (Matt. 18:19-20) is about church discipline, not prayer, so I'll answer generally and not to a specific person. I believe it is about the church in general (as the previous verses) and about corporate prayer. Here is why.

    First of all, v. 18 starts with "again" (palin in the Greek). This is an indication that the particular subject is changing. I could give many passages to prove this, but look at Matt. 4:8, where "again" Satan tempts Jesus; a related subject but not the same temptation.

    Secondly, do the math. If two or three witnesses are in question in Matt. 18:2, and then those witnesses are to take the matter before the church, "assembly," in v. 3, then there are far more than two or three involved in vv. 15-18), including the offender, the witnesses and the church. However, in vv. 19-20 there are only two or three involved. So it cannot be the same group.
     
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