Is there salvation outside of Christ?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by riverm, Dec 13, 2005.

  1. riverm

    riverm
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    Here’s a discussion going on in the “General Baptist Discussion” area for our resident Baptist only. The Topic “Is there salvation outside of Christ?”

    Here’s a quote from Dr. Bob:
    Dr. Bob is surprised that “Baptists” believe that just believing in “God” will save. I hope Dr. Bob is not implying that there’s no salvation outside the “baptist” church…lol

    So my question for the area theologians that aren’t blinded by the infallible Baptist only distinctive is that:

    Do you believe that God would create a soul, such as “Joe Blow” from West Papua who has NEVER heard Jesus or the gospel to be “Damned” to Hell for all eternity?

    Helen alluded to this, but I will turn it into a Question. At what point in history did solely believing on the name Jesus become essential to our salvation in ALL cultures and walks of life…yes, even “Joe Blow” in West Papua who’s never seen a civilized human? Let’s say 50 yrs “after” the resurrection of Jesus, how many of the world’s population knew God, but never heard the name “Jesus”? Were all those people “damned” to Hell as well?

    So again I ask when God started “Damning” people to Hell who have never “heard” the name Jesus. Was it one minute after Jesus’ resurrection? 30 minutes? 1 Hour? 6 hours? 2 days? 40 days? 1 year? 5 years? 35 years? 100 years? When?

    Blessings
     
  2. Matt Black

    Matt Black
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    He didn't.
     
  3. Hardsheller

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    Matt is absolutely right. Adam damned himself and all his descendents to hell in the Garden of Eden.

    If not then there was no reason for Christ to come to earth.
     
  4. Matt Black

    Matt Black
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    You misunderstood me, then. I was saying that God, being just, would not damn someone who had never heard of Christ. Otherwise there would be no hope of salvation for 'Joe Blow'.
     
  5. steaver

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    Faith in the Word of God, from the garden of Eden until now, is what saves the sinner from damnation. Once the name and person Jesus Christ was revealed it became yet another revelation from God and must be believed. If one believed the Word of God up until Jesus' revelation they would know and believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God as He proclaimed. Same goes for the Holy Spirit. If one does not believe in the Holy Spirit one will not be saved.

    The beautiful part about the death, burial and ressurrection of Jesus Christ is that God then chose to seal those who call on Jesus with the Holy Spirit ( a special working of the Holy Spirit that was not availiable prior to the ressurrection) that they may forever be saved and never again discard the Word of God, for the Word of God now lives in the believer's heart permenantly (eternal).

    God Bless! [​IMG]
     
  6. steaver

    steaver
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    I wonder about the men, women and children who perished in the flood. Escpecially the infants. The scripture states that only eight souls were saved.

    God Bless!
     
  7. riverm

    riverm
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    Hi steaver,

    Just so I’m understanding your reply, would you say that “Joe Blow” from West Papua whose never heard of the Christian God, much less Jesus, but does believe in a god. Will “Joe Blow” be damned to Hell for this? Or since “Joe Blow’s” conscience told him there’s a god and his conscience convicted him in terms of right and wrong and “Joe” lived his life accordingly, knowing right from wrong. Will “Joe Blow” be judged by God accordingly?

    Blessings
     
  8. Charles Meadows

    Charles Meadows
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    Riverm,

    Keep in mind that Dr Bob is a "reformed" thinker. As such reformed thinkers see God's sovereign will as dictating to whom he will reveal Himself. Thus the nonbeliever in America who has heard over and over about Christ is lost (along with Joe Blow) because it was not in God's soveriegn plan that he be regenerated by the Spirit. So in that scheme Joe Blow's reprobation is neither unfair nor any different than the one who has heard of Christ - since belief on Christ depends on the all-knowing will of God and NOT on a person's being given a chance to hear the gospel.

    Those who are not reformed (as I am not) would not see a problem with all people being given a chance, before damnation, to at least hear of Jesus. Indeed I sincerely hope this IS the case.

    But we really do not have any biblical basis for asserting this as fact other than the observation that God is just.
     
  9. Kiffen

    Kiffen
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    Actually the Reformed thinker as well as even classical Arminians do not believe that people deserve to be saved or that Salvation is about chance. That implies humanity is in a neutral position when scripture is clear since Adam's fall, humanity is allied with Satan.

    All humanity deserves eternal hell. Justice means we all go to Hell. Salvation however is about Grace "unmerited favor" and not about God justly sending all humanity to Hell. Christ on the Cross satisfied God's justice so that all who have faith in Him are saved. People are not lost because they have not heard or ignorant but because they are sinners justly deserving God's wrath whether they understand the Gospel or not.
     
  10. Matt Black

    Matt Black
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    But that explanation also limits God's Grace as well as divorcing its operation from His justice, as Charles has pointed out.
     
  11. Hardsheller

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    How is God's Grace limited by the classic orthodox Christian understanding of the Fall and the resulting damnation of every living soul?

    It is Justice when all get what they deserve. Because of the Fall all humankind deserves death and hell.

    It is by God's grace that any are saved from their just reward and it is God who controls or limits His grace not man.
     
  12. Charles Meadows

    Charles Meadows
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    Kiffen,

    I agree.

    My point was to assert specifically that the idea of person being damned, having NEVER heard of Christ is not "unfair" in reformed thinking precisely because we all deserve hell and only those whom God has, in His sovereign knowledge, decided to quicken will be regenerated.

    If God has decided that Joe Blow of Papua will be regenerated then he WILL hear the gospel and come to faith. If he never hears it then he merely receives what he deserves (hell) in accordance with God's will (him NOT being among the elect).

    As I said before I am NOT a calvinist!

    ;)
     
  13. Matt Black

    Matt Black
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    If it is demanded that Joe Blow hear the Gospel and respond to it as a prerequisite for being saved, and he never gets the chance to, then God's grace is limited, in this case by the accident of Joe's place of birth and residence.
     
  14. Kiffen

    Kiffen
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    I fail to see how.

    Justice requires the Law be executed on individuals. Hell is Justice and it would have been fair for God to condemn the entire human race to Hell.

    Grace is "Unmerited favor". Jesus met the requirements of the Law on the Cross and satisfied the requirements of the Law. God's grace comes through the preaching of the Gospel and without the Word, no one will be saved. There is a reason for the Great Commission! To share with others the good news of Christ.

    There however is no requirement on God to show Grace to anyone, no more than there is a requirement on a Governor to pardon anyone on death row. The Waldensian Confession states it well, That God saves from this corruption and condemnation those whom he has chosen {from the foundation of the world, not for any foreseen disposition, faith, or holiness in hem, but} of his mercy in Jesus Christ his Son; passing by all the rest, according to the irreprehensible reason of his freedom and justice.
     
  15. D28guy

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    The word of God on this subject is that everyone who has never heard of Christ has...intuitively...recieved some form of revelation of God and what is required of him/her to be saved.

    That being that they are sinners and hopelessly seperated from God. They can do nothing to ever be good enough, so they must hope that God will take care of the problem himself and mercifully grant them eternal life as a gift.

    But they...being rebellious sinners...will all turn from ithat revelation and not recieve the opportunity to be born of the Spirit that was offered.

    This is found in Romans 1:16-25...

    "1:16

    For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, F1 for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
    1:17

    For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "The just shall live by faith." F2

    1:18

    For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

    1:19

    because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.

    1:20

    For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

    1:21

    because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

    1:22

    Professing to be wise, they became fools,

    1:23

    and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man--and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

    1:24

    Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves,

    1:25

    who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen."


    Joeumba Blowicomba in the jungles knows...in his heart...that the sun isnt God, and that someone had to make the sun. And he knows...in his heart...that faithfully serving the totem pole isnt acceptable to the true God, and that being "good enough" and "faithfull enough" wont due, and he needs 100% mercy, for he is unworthy.

    He knows...in his heart...that in spite of all his working and faithfullness to the sun and totem pole he is a sinner, deserving of judgement...and needs mercy.

    But he will pridefully turn from that and be judged according to the true knowledge that he knew intuitively...which he rejected.

    Sadly,

    Mike
     
  16. tamborine lady

    tamborine lady
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    [​IMG]

    John 14-6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

    Why don't we stop the waltz and get to the facts.

    According to the scripture above, the answer to the question "is there salvation outside of Christ", the answer is NO.


    Acts 4-12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

    Jesus is the only way.

    If we are to go by the Word of God, then that should settle it.
    :rolleyes:

    Think it over,

    Tam
     
  17. D28guy

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    Having re-read my last post, I just want to make sure it isnt misunderstood.

    I'm saying that none of those who have never heard of Christ can be saved.

    But not because...darn the luck!...they were unfortunate enough to have never heard the saving gospel, but because they will be judged and found guilty of pridefully rejecting whatever degree of truth was revealed to them through creation itself.

    God bless,

    Mike
     
  18. riverm

    riverm
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    Whew! I’m glad I live in the good ‘ol US of A and had the opportunity to respond to the Gospel and be saved!

    Boy, if by no fault of my own I was born in a remote jungle of New Guinea and never had that opportunity to hear the Gospel I’d be cast into Hell for all eternity!!!!

    Better yet, what if I was born, ummm, let’s say 5 years after Christ’s resurrection and I believed in God, my parents were Jewish and were killed and I was sold into slavery at a young age. I always believed in the God of my ancestors and I was tragically killed at 12, still never having heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ, too bad, looks like I’m Hell bound…
     
  19. riverm

    riverm
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    That’s the bases of my question. What if I was born in some remote part of the world and never heard the Gospel of this man named “Jesus”, but as you said, creation tells me that there is a God and so do my parents, only the God my tribe worships is some spirit God that rides on the wind. My conscience tells me what’s right and what’s wrong and the wrong I do, I feel guilty for and have remorse and chose not to do that wrong anymore.

    Will I be cast into Hell or will God judge me based on my works, since I had no clue about a man named Jesus.

    Do you believe that I, in the above scenario, may have the opportunity to hear the Gospel after I die and will have the chance to accept or reject the Gospel?
     
  20. jesusrocks

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    My opinion...

    No, no one is saved outside of Christ.

    What then of those who have not heard the Gospel message (for there are such people)? Those who have not heard the name of Jesus, but who have followed the Truth insofar as they know it--who have strived to live good upstanding lives in spite of their situation CAN be saved... BUT, this Salvation is not a salvation apart from Jesus Christ because it was still the grace of Christ that allowed them to live that good life--whether they were able to know and recognize that because of their situation is a moot point. God is God, He can save whom He wills to save, and we would do well to remember that Christ sits in the Seat of Judgment and not us. We cannot say who has gone to Hell because we are not the ones with the power of damnation.

    Lastly, this is not to say that every "good person" will go to Heaven either. Their judgment is the call of Jesus Christ who searches their heart and knows them more intimately than they know themselves. He knows who belongs to Him and who does not.
     

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