Is there Salvation outside of Christ?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Dr. Bob, Dec 12, 2005.

  1. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
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    “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God” (John 3:18).

    Seems pretty cut-and-dried that salvation outside of Christ (as taught by C.S. Lewis, J.I. Packer, Philip Yancey, Tony Campolo, Stott, Clark Pinnock, and Billy Graham) is UNBIBLICAL.
     
  2. Marcia

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    I agree, Dr. Bob, that there is no salvation outside of Christ.

    I was thinking of doing a poll with a question like, "Would worship of Tash save someone?" but haven't got around to it.
     
  3. KenH

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    One cannot be saved outside of the atoning work of Christ Jesus.

    I have no reason to think that C.S. Lewis was not saved.

    This is my last post on these threads on which some people who evidently think that they are the "salvation police" are trying to tear down a brother in Christ, C.S. Lewis.

    Sometimes the behavior on this board drops below the standards of even the lost world, in my opinion.
     
  4. Karen

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    Please read this quote from J.I. Packer from the October 2005 issue of Christianity Today.
    Where are you getting your idea about J.I. Packer? Not from his words.
    http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2005/010/29.88.html

    I don't have time right now to look up some of the others.

    Karen
     
  5. Helen

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    the name of Jesus. That is the name Y'shua, or Joshua, right?

    The meaning is "God is Salvation."

    To believe in the name of Jesus is to believe that God is Salvation.

    Is there anyone here who thinks there is something magical about the letters J E S U S?

    Or J O S H U A?

    Names had meanings, biblically. To believe in the name of Jesus was to believe Joshua -- God is salvation.

    That is what was and is required for salvation. At least that is what the Bible is saying.

    Jesus of Nazareth is the means whereby that was effected, for that Man was also God. But before the Incarnation, it was quite possible to believe to salvation that God is Salvation. Even Job knew his Redeemer lived.

    Are you folks really willing to say that people who have never heard of the Man from Nazareth but who have trusted God for their salvation, relying on the ancient Promise that has come down through the ages -- are you willing to say they are not saved?

    I'm glad God judges the hearts.
     
  6. Marcia

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    I do not think that since the incarnation of Christ, that belief in God without Christ can save. General revelation does not save.

    I am amazed at how popular inclusivism is here on the BB.
     
  7. Helen

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    God knows the hearts of people, Marcia. He knows who has trusted Him for salvation by way of whatever truth they knew/know. It is not intellectual knowledge which saves; it is faith in God, because of His incredible grace.
     
  8. Paul of Eugene

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    What did Jesus say would bring salvation? How people responded to Him. But He put it in a way that still seems strange to our doctrinally trained ears:

    Matt 25:34-40

    34 "Then the King will say to those on His right, "Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

    35 "For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;

    36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.'

    37 "Then the righteous will answer Him,"Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink?

    38 "And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?

    39 "When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'

    40 "The King will answer and say to them, "Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.'
    NASU

    It is theologically incorrect to expect salvation from correct theology.

    This does not mean correct theology is useless. It has other uses.
     
  9. Frogman

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    Amen KenH and Helen,
    This is why Peter was sent to Cornelius, not because God was unable to show to him the promise, nor able to convince him of the promise, nor able to enable him to see the promise afar off, nor able to embrace the promise, but because Cornelius did believe and the gospel is the message of the fulfilled atonement. Not a message God hopes man will validate by his belief.

    if someone tells you an untruth, does your belief of it make it true?

    If someone tells you the truth, does your disbelief of it make it untrue?

    Belief in the name of Jesus is not salvation; belief of the gospel message is evidence of life and immortality already present. Belief of interpretations of man does not render one lost, nor will it render one's eternal hope.

    Has someone by all appearances rejected the gospel message? then as far as you all and I can see they do not possess an eternal hope, but can we judge the belief unto righteousness on their heart that only God is able to see simply because they differ to ourselves in understanding.

    The message of the gospel is not an offer; it is a proclamation of a completed work of redemption in Christ;

    Did He not say He knows His sheep? Do we believe He does not? Did He not say His sheep hear HIS Voice and follow Him? Do we believe they do not? Does our disbelieve make His words void? Did He say the Spirit takes the things that are of Him and give them to us? Do we not believe His word?

    I am surprised at so much unbelief???

    Bro. Dallas
     
  10. John of Japan

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    As one on the BB who has lived in a heathen culture for decades, I can give experiential proof that Romans 1 is absolutely true. People in heathen cultures are headed 180 degrees away from Christ. Neither natural revelation nor whatever truth is in their native religion can bring them to Christ.

    Japanese Buddhists and Shintoists cannot possibly come to Christ without hearing the Gospel. Quite the opposite: their religions instill in them pride in self, prejudice towards Christ, etc. To give just one example, the primary premise of Buddhism is that man can become "hotoke," or a god, after death. Thus the primary faith of Japan, whether it be Buddhism or Shintoism, is ancestor worship.

    I once had an old bachelor coming to my church in Yokohama. This guy had seen the seamy side of life, so one day when I said, "Isn't Yokohama a nice city?" he answered, "Nope, it's dirty. I've seen the bottom of it." Don't believe what you read about Japan in the media. Public drunkenness is not illegal, there is twice the abortion per capita as America, wife beating is common (only recently made illegal), there is a ton of porno here, much crime in the public school system. [​IMG]
     
  11. MikeinGhana

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    Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. No man cometh unto the father but by me. There is no name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved. He that hath the son hath life. (As you all well know many more can be stated here)

    It seems to me the person of Jesus is central and tantamount to biblical salvation.
     
  12. John of Japan

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    Helen, it seems almost that are you saying that someone can get saved without the Gospel. Please tell me you aren't. This doesn't seem like you from the posts of yours I've read. :confused:
     
  13. Frogman

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    Dear Brother John and Mike,
    This is exactly why we preach repentance and remission of sin in His name.

    But there is not a one of us delivers any other, nor even ourselves from death unto life.

    IN Matt. 28:18 Jesus said all power is given unto Him in heaven and earth.

    In Matt. 9 he says that he has power to forgive sins on earth; He still possesses that power, He alone.

    Romans 10:10 calls this a belief unto righteousness in the heart. The beginning of Romans 10 states that Israel's blindness was that they set about to est. their own righteousness and ignored the righteousness of God.

    Romans 3 tells us the righteousness of God is manifested in Christ.

    Paul, as an experientially regenerated believer cries out in Romans 7 because of the sinfulness of his flesh.

    Bro. Dallas
     
  14. Helen

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    Helen, it seems almost that are you saying that someone can get saved without the Gospel. Please tell me you aren't. This doesn't seem like you from the posts of yours I've read. :confused: </font>[/QUOTE]I doubt it is possible today, which is well evidenced by your other post, John. But the Gospel as we know it from the Bible has not always been available to men -- even after the Incarnation. However, from the stories missioniaries have come back with from those earlier days, there was something of the original promise of salvation by God left in each culture, one way or another. Coming down from creation, from Noah, from Babel... the stories remained, and with them the knowledge that there was one true Creator God of gods and that He had promised to rescue. Belief in THAT God and in THAT promise -- was that enough?

    God knows the heart. That is all I am sure of. I have ideas about other things, but they anger a lot of people here and there is no need to do that again.

    God is salvation. That is the Gospel Promise, is it not? That is the name of Jesus. Literally.

    I do know this, that God truly has loved the entire world enough to give His only begotten Son. I know that He is not willing that ONE should perish. I know that Christ died for ALL. And because Paul tells us plainly that no man has an excuse, I also know that God has given each man and woman who has ever lived enough truth to grab onto and follow so that they can be led to God is Salvation.

    edit to stop any misconception: I am not a universalist! I know most seem to refuse God and prefer themselves. That is unutterably sad and painful to really, really think about. I hope some of those who seem to refuse don't really...but probably most adults have refused through time.
     
  15. Dr. Bob

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    I am truly amazed. This thread is for BAPTISTS ONLY and how many have already said that just believing in "God" will save?

    He who doesn't believe in Jesus (not letters, not some magic, we're talking about Jesus here - God the Son dying on the cross) is DAMNED ALREADY simply because of NOT believing on Jesus Christ.

    No wonder some are now saying that joe blow in West Papua who never hears of Jesus CAN BE SAVED.

    One French word for that.

    BALOGNA
     
  16. Sunnydays

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    Jesus said

    " I AM THE WAY THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE NO MAN

    COMES TO THE FATHER EXCEPT THROUGH ME "
     
  17. John of Japan

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    Dr. Bob, you continue to amaze me. French as well as Greek and Hebrew! You are quite the linguist! :D

    And by the way, I agree with all of your post.
     
  18. John of Japan

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    Hi again, Helen.

    I am glad to note that you are not a universalist.

    RE the witness of God's truth in heathen cultures, one example of this, as you may know, is in the Chinese characters, used here in Japan as well as in China. To give just two examples: (1) the character for "ship" consists of 3 radical: boat, eight, people--thus, Noah's ark. (2) the character for "righteous" consists of the radicals for: sheep, hand and axe (the hand and axe constituting a character for "me")--thus, righteousness is a sheep sacrificed for me.

    These characters probably come from the original Chinese religion, which was the worship of the all-powerful monotheistic God named Shang Ti. In the day of Confucius, this religion very much resembled Judaism, even having sheep sacrifice. I have wondered myself whether Confucius himself had some knowlege of Judaism and Yahweh and was actually saved. When you read his writings and realize that his word "Heaven" is another name for Shang Ti, the possibility becomes fascinating. However, by the time of Christ, Confucianism had degenerated into idolatry. You say, "Belief in THAT God and in THAT promise -- was that enough?" I say, no it was not and is not.

    We missionaries have been using the Chinese characters to witness for more than 100 years, but there is the key: we must still witness to the Asians. I have never known a Japanese or Chinese who realized without being told what was in the Chinese characters. Their sin nature, permeating their whole society with evil, leads them away from Christ and truth, as Romans 1 teaches.
     
  19. whatever

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    Check out this quote from page 65 of Mere Christianity (emphasis mine):
    Do you believe that babies who die are saved? Most Baptists do, but I bet most couldn't give a reason why they believe it. I think those who could would say something like this, that if babies who die are saved then they must be saved in Christ, even though they cannot "know" Christ in the same way that we can. I think that's what Lewis is getting at.

    Anyway, he explicitly stated that salvation must come through Christ. Maybe you think he used the wrong preposition or something, but given this statement I think it is difficult to make the case that Lewis taught salvation outside of Christ, as you have charged.
     
  20. blackbird

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    In John 14:6 Jesus tells us, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me."

    To answer the question---Is there salvation outside of the Lord Jesus Christ?

    NO! There is no salvation outside of the Lord Jesus Christ!!
     

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