Is there such a thing as 'free will' or is it just a choice between Good and evil?

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by benz, Jun 23, 2005.

  1. benz

    benz
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    According to the scriptures is there a thing called free will meaning that you are in control on your descions (FREE WILL:who you marry, how many kids you have? or are these out of the freewill bracket?) or is it merly a choice between either Good or Evil. Also add your personal opinion of what you feel is true. Thanks...
     
  2. OCC

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    My fellow Canuk...are you sure you want to ask these questions here? lol get your hard hat on brother. I'll try and stay out of it.
     
  3. Sularis

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    Well let's see anything where I have control without the influence of other people - I have free will. Surprisingly thats not a lot.

    kids - one would assume your spouse would have a voice
    marry - we men all know we dont get choice in that

    but yes it essentially breaks down to the choice between Good and Evil - but because of our sin nature - our will while free to choose to do good - chooses it not. And upon one evil act - all subsequent good acts become worthless or as dirty rags.
     
  4. TexasSky

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    Benz,

    I think it is more a choice of following God or not following God.

    God told Adam and Eve what God's rules were.
    Satan told Adam and Eve to ignore those rules.
    Adam and Eve had the free will to ignore God,and suffer the consequences, or obey God, and have peace and happiness.

    God could have taken that ability to choose away. He could have "removed the tree of knowledge of good and evil" from their reach to begin with. He could have put a thousand angels around it so they couldn't touch it.

    It appears, though, He wanted loving obedience though. Not forced compliance.

    So, they were allowed to choose, and they chose badly.
     
  5. OCC

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    Interesting how this subject poses respectful posts from people but it causes WW3 in the C/A debate forum. [​IMG]
     
  6. jdcanady

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    I don't see mankind as having freewill. The term, historically, has been applied to the ability to choose to obey God and live a righteous life without any outside influence from God. It negates the role of the Holy Spirit in calling, convicting, regeneration, etc.

    I think the term free moral agent is a more accurate description of reality. Free moral agency says we are free to act according to our nature, recognizing the many influences that affect our decisions, sin, other people, and Satan and his demons being among them.

    I still like what Martin Luther said about sin influencing our decisions. Sin is an elephant, and we are a gnat on the elephant's behind. To the extent that the gnat controls the elephant that is how much control we have (without God) over the sin in our lives. To the extent the elephant controls where the gnat goes, that is how much control sin has over our lives (again, without God.)

    Those that sin are a slave to sin. If the Son sets you free, you are free indeed. (John 8:34 & 36.) A slave has no control over the master, the master has total control over the slave.
     
  7. exscentric

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    "Interesting how this subject poses respectful posts from people but it causes WW3 in the C/A debate forum."

    Don't know bout you but I'm stayin under the table awhile more - just in case they ain't discovered it yet :)
     
  8. Jarthur001

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    This is truly a subject of high degree. I’m not sure anyone understands it fully. I make no claim to understand it myself. I have heard many try explain this, but I never came away feeling they covered everything. I think most mean well, but somethings we may never know the answer to till we reach Heaven. Where we get in trouble is when we take one side and try to explain the other side to fit the side we choose. Bottom line is, the Bible teaches both Gods choosing us before the world was formed and also teaches man and his need to choose God. Where they come together...I have no idea.

    As to the question. Man does not have a free will. This I’m sure of. I know the term is used a lot, but it does not hold water. I feel the better term is “Man has a will to choose”. Free will suggest that man can choose anything at any time. That is not the case according to the Bible. Man does have a will to choose, but is limited in his choice.

    This is easy to see in a area much simpler than salvation. I love basketball and would love to play the game as well as Michael Jordan. My choice to wish this dream does not mean I will ever be Michael Jordan. You can play this out in many areas and say again and again man has a limit to what he can choose.

    Salvation can not happen if man does not know he has salvation as a choice. If he does not know of salvation, mans will is limited to the choices he knows of. Now the Bible also says man SHOULD know of God by just looking at creation. God has given Man many ways to know Him. Still many do not know Him. Some are just to busy with sin, or self, or good works that they do not see God, nor know there even is a God. Still others know of God yet were told wrongly of another way to follow God. God said there is only one way to Heaven. I could go on like this for a while, but I think you get my point.


    Man can and does choose many things, but his will is not free to choose everything.

    In Christ....James
     
  9. emeraldctyangel

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    Ah the big questions.

    Well I have been posed with free will versus destiny. I do not believe in destiny.

    I believe God gave us free will and some rules and contexts to use it in. Here is mine:

    I lost a child four years ago in a bicycle/car accident. Neither the driver nor my son were doing anything against God's will near as I can tell. Free will put that man behind the wheel of the car and my son on his bike. It was an accident. God looked down, saw how broken my son was and took his hand in all His mercy. I do not believe that God would take a little boy like that - there are 8 million ways to die, so if you want to get into how it was his time to go...that is what I believe. God is loving and merciful, he would not have hurt a child like that. Hence, free will was at work here.
     
  10. jdcanady

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    emeraldctyangel

    I am sorry for your loss. I have lost a child myself, and I know that pain can sometimes be as fresh as the day he died in my arms.

    But, I know that God is in control. He is not watching helplessly from heaven, waiting for bad things to happen and powerless to stop them. Man's "freewill" (there is no such thing) does not trump God's will (the only free-will in the universe).

    I trust my God, who knows all things, and has all power, and is perfect love and truth and righteousness; that He knows better than I when it is time for someone to die. I will see him again, and we will worship our God together, forever. I find great peace in knowing my God is in control.
     
  11. TexasSky

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    I believe, very much, in the biblical portrayal of God as a parental figure.

    As a parent, I could smother my children in an effort to keep them safe. I could remove choices in an effort to keep them from making mistakes. However, part of being a parent is watching a child grow and letting a child make their own choices.

    I believe God is a loving parent that does what a loving parent should do. He gives us guidelines to follow for our own sakes. At times, He steps back and allows us to make choices, knowing that at times we will make mistakes. Sometimes the mistakes are small, sometimes they are large. Always, God is there to pick up the pieces, to make "all things good."

    If he removed that ability to make decisions we would not be children of God, we would be mindless, souless robots.

    Also - I actually think that to say man does not have free will is to call the Bible wrong. Or, to attribute evil to God. Man sins. So, either man has free will - as the bible seems to indicate when it shows us examples of sins of man, or of Christ resisting tempation, or when it cautions us to resist temptation. OR - if we do not have free will, man sins because God makes him sin. That just is not logical. God does not make us do wrong. Ergo, He gives us choices.
     
  12. jdcanady

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    TexasSky

    We sin because of our fallen nature. We, alone are responsible for our sins, not God. Our will cannot be free when we have all the outside influences of sin, Satan and his demons, other people, etc.
     
  13. TexasSky

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    Of course we can, JD. We are free to choose to follow God, or to follow Satan.

    That is the free will we have. To obey or not to obey.

    We can't blame that on Satan.

    God didn't let Eve get by with it, why do you think He would let us get by with it?

    She said, "The devil made me do it," and God reminded her that she did it.
     
  14. jdcanady

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    It is simply untrue that we are free to choose to follow God, without God intervining by the Holy Spirit to draw us, change our very nature, convict us of sin, give us faith, keep us until his return.

    Do you believe that a believer can lose his salvation?
     
  15. dianetavegia

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    Mt 4:19
    Then He said to them, "Follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men."

    Mt 8:22
    But Jesus said to him, "Follow Me, and let the dead bury their own dead."

    Mt 9:9
    As Jesus passed on from there, He saw a man named Matthew sitting at the tax office. And He said to him, "Follow Me." So he arose and followed Him.

    Mt 10:38
    And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.

    Mt 16:24
    Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.

    Mt 19:21
    Jesus said to him, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

    Mr 1:17
    Then Jesus said to them, "Follow Me, and I will make you become fishers of men."

    Mr 2:14
    As He passed by, He saw Levi the son of Alphaeus sitting at the tax office. And He said to him, "Follow Me." So he arose and followed Him.

    Mr 8:34
    When He had called the people to Himself, with His disciples also, He said to them, "Whoever desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.

    Mr 10:21
    Then Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, "One thing you lack: Go your way, sell whatever you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, take up the cross, and follow Me."

    Lu 5:27
    After these things He went out and saw a tax collector named Levi, sitting at the tax office. And He said to him, "Follow Me."

    Lu 9:23
    Then He said to them all, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me.

    Lu 9:59
    Then He said to another, "Follow Me." But he said, "Lord, let me first go and bury my father."

    Lu 9:61
    And another also said, "Lord, I will follow You, but let me first go and bid them farewell who are at my house."

    Joh 1:43
    The following day Jesus wanted to go to Galilee, and He found Philip and said to him, "Follow Me."

    Joh 12:26
    If anyone serves Me, let him follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also. If anyone serves Me, him My Father will honor.
     
  16. jdcanady

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    Hi Diane. [​IMG]
     
  17. dianetavegia

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    I agree. God allows man to decide, yes or no, to accept the salvific sacrifice of Christ Jesus. To say God controls everything makes God the author of evil.

    I do NOT believe that anyone who has accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior can lose their salvation.

    My on-line time is limited today as I have four children plus my own. I'll try to answer more during nap times. I have a long list of works of the Holy Spirit but not on my computer. It'll take quite a while to type up.
     
  18. TexasSky

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    Preach it Diane. [​IMG]

    And to the one who asked. I do not believe we can lose salvation. The bible says no one can snatch you from Christ's hands. However, that is AFTER you have come to Christ.
     
  19. Jeffrey H

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    Hmmm...I would humbly disagree with you on that one. To say God is in control of everything does not make Him the author of evil. Satan is under God's control, but God allows Satan to roam the earth. God can destroy Satan and his demons anytime He pleases and that puts Him in total control of everything.
     
  20. dianetavegia

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    If God controls everything then God controls the actions of the rapist, the abortionist, the murder, the adulterer, the liar, the thief, the man who preaches that which is not from scripture...
     

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