Is this a contradiction?

michelle said "You alter the words you alter the message. You add to the words, you have added/changed the message. You take away from the words, you take away from the message."

Hmmm. What did the sign say that was put on the cross over Jesus' head? What is the exact wording of the Lord's Prayer? In what order were the three temptations of Christ? Nay, variety of Translations is profitable for the finding out of the sense of the Scriptures. Nay, as the King's speech, which he uttereth in Parliament, being translated into French, Dutch, Italian, and Latin, is still the King's speech, though it be not interpreted by every Translator with the like grace, nor peradventure so fitly for phrase, nor so expressly for sense, everywhere.

 

That may be the greatest of KJVo evils: teaching people to reject God if KJVo is demonstrably false.

 

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This actually exposes two serious doctrinal departures: baptism regeneration and infant baptism. These are the basic issues which have separated true churches from pseudo churches for centuries. Millions of Christians have died refusing to bow to infant baptism. Read about the "heretics" during the Dark Ages--on the www.
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Actually this is what the GOSPEL SAYS:


John 3

1. There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2. The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9. Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10. Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11. Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12. If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13. And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
14. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15. That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

......


Matthew 3

5. Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,
6. And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.
7. But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8. Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9. And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10. And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
11. I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
12. Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
13. Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
14. But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?


Water baptism is NOT REQUIRED for salvation so these only show they are the quarrels of men, and not Godly. My opposition to Catholicsim isn't based upon the fact that they sprinkle babies, and baptize them as babies, but because they preach and teach a false Jesus Christ, and a False Gospel, to which God has said is accursed.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

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You pick and choose which scholars you believe are inspired by God, and which you believe were not. You have given no basis for your beliefs. Nothing from the Bible, nothing from history, just bald assertions.

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NO, I have faith in the scriptures and judge ALL ACCORDING to that, including those things today claiming they are the scriptures, when the truth of God's words EXPOSE they have been tampered with. It is called discernment. God has given us His words for many reasons, one being to protect us from false teachers and false christs, coming in HIS name.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

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Hmmm. What did the sign say that was put on the cross over Jesus' head? What is the exact wording of the Lord's Prayer? In what order were the three temptations of Christ? Nay, variety of Translations is profitable for the finding out of the sense of the Scriptures. Nay, as the King's speech, which he uttereth in Parliament, being translated into French, Dutch, Italian, and Latin, is still the King's speech, though it be not interpreted by every Translator with the like grace, nor peradventure so fitly for phrase, nor so expressly for sense, everywhere.
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Interesting you say this, however this has to do with languages that are different one from the other. Not necessarily in the same language. It is also interesting, that in the face of all the evidence that the modern versions have ALTERED the words of the Lord, that you would then use the OPINIONS OF MEN for your belief than to base your belief upon the truth in the scriptures, and what they indeed have and do EXPOSE. You will be without excuse.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

No, it's called "begging the question." You assume the thing you need to prove.

 

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No, it's called "begging the question." You assume the thing you need to prove.
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You should read Hebrews 11 and really contemplate it, and pray about it.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

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I think the vast majority have faith that the KJV is not the inerrant, full and faithful transmission of the Word of God to the English people. Only a small minority hold to the (very new) tradition of believing KJVo.
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And in my opinion, and observation, it only reflects the truth that God has warned us of in the following:

2 Timothy 3


2 Thessalonians 2


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

[ October 19, 2004, 02:23 PM: Message edited by: Dr. Bob ]

 

Meanwhile, earlier in this thread, Michelle said, “Here is a link that I recommend you read:”

From that link, a comment by the author, D. A. Waite, a KJVO/TRO advocate: “...although there might be other renderings from the original languages which could also be acceptable to us today.”

Waite is speaking of other acceptable *English* renderings of the same underlying Greek TR text as that of the KJV. Do you accept that comment as well, Michelle?

 

michelle said "Interesting you say this, however this has to do with languages that are different one from the other. Not necessarily in the same language."

But the point is the same. What were the exact words Jesus spoke when he gave the Lord's Prayer? Matt and Luke use different words. According to you, "You alter the words you alter the message." Who altered the message: Matthew, Luke, or both? What of the message on the cross - who altered the message: Matt, Mark, Luke, and/or John? If different words can have the same message, whether or not we're talking about same or different language is moot.

But suppose you're right, and crossing languages does make a difference. The Lord's Prayer was most likely spoken by Jesus in Aramaic, then translated into Greek by Matthew and Luke, using different words! Also, explicitly, why do Matt, Mark, and John all translate the Hebrew "Golgotha" into Greek with different words? Why do Mark and Luke translate Jesus' Aramaic words "Talitha cumi" differently into Greek when Jesus raised the girl from the dead?

michelle said "It is also interesting, that in the face of all the evidence that the modern versions have ALTERED the words of the Lord, that you would then use the OPINIONS OF MEN for your belief than to base your belief upon the truth in the scriptures"

I have posted the scriptures that support my belief.

 

and also this.....


Matthew 7

12. Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
13. Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14. Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15. Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17. Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23. And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

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Waite is speaking of other acceptable *English* renderings of the same underlying Greek TR text as that of the KJV. Do you accept that comment as well, Michelle?
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Yes, I do, and have said as much.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

I believe there is no use arguing with the KJVo 4 and 5's. Their hearts have been hardened and they will not be convicted of the truth on this.

 

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But the point is the same. What were the exact words Jesus spoke when he gave the Lord's Prayer? Matt and Luke use different words. According to you, "You alter the words you alter the message." Who altered the message: Matthew, Luke, or both? What of the message on the cross - who altered the message: Matt, Mark, Luke, and/or John? If different words can have the same message, whether or not we're talking about same or different language is moot.
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Interesting you bring up our Lord's prayer. Some of the modern versions, such as the NIV have altered this tremendously. So, please tell me, which is the pure words of God and which one is not:


Luke 11

1. And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples.
2. And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.
3. Give us day by day our daily bread.
4. And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.


.....or


NIV


Luke 11


Jesus' Teaching on Prayer

1One day Jesus was praying in a certain place. When he finished, one of his disciples said to him, "Lord, teach us to pray, just as John taught his disciples."
2He said to them, "When you pray, say:
" 'Father,[1]
hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come.[2]
3Give us each day our daily bread.
4Forgive us our sins,
for we also forgive everyone who sins against us.[3]
And lead us not into temptation.[4] ' "


By the way, this was a DIRECT TEACHING of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. Which one is HIS words? Which should I pray, the one or the other?


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

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But suppose you're right, and crossing languages does make a difference. The Lord's Prayer was most likely spoken by Jesus in Aramaic, then translated into Greek by Matthew and Luke, using different words! Also, explicitly, why do Matt, Mark, and John all translate the Hebrew "Golgotha" into Greek with different words? Why do Mark and Luke translate Jesus' Aramaic words "Talitha cumi" differently into Greek when Jesus raised the girl from the dead?

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You need to ask God this, as they are HIS words, and the way HE CHOSE to give them. They however do not contradict one another, nor are they different. This is not a good enouph reason to try to justify and condone alterations to God's words.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

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I have posted the scriptures that support my belief.
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You have posted scriptures that show you have contradicted yourself and show your confusion.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

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I believe there is no use arguing with the KJVo 4 and 5's. Their hearts have been hardened and they will not be convicted of the truth on this.
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You need to take a long, good hard look into the mirror my friend.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

That's what I was trying to say....thanks for providing it in a nut-shell pastorjeff!

 

If the modern revision of the KJV is the same as the 1611, then the NKJV is the same as the 1611.