Is this it?!

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by preacher4truth, Jul 15, 2011.

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Is this it?

  1. This is not it, we await literal fulfillment of the new heaven and earth.

    14 vote(s)
    82.4%
  2. All has been fulfilled, the Day of the Lord is over, this is the new heaven and earth.

    1 vote(s)
    5.9%
  3. The Day of the Lord is not yet completely fulfilled.

    9 vote(s)
    52.9%
  4. Resurrection is only spiritual, including Christs, and is fulfilled already.

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. Resurrection is bodily and literal, and is yet future.

    13 vote(s)
    76.5%
  6. Christs Kingdom is only "spiritual" and "invisible."

    1 vote(s)
    5.9%
  7. Christs future coming will be physical & literal as was His incarnation & first NT coming.

    14 vote(s)
    82.4%
  8. I still await the Blessed Hope, & there is yet a coming resurrection.

    13 vote(s)
    76.5%
  9. The Blessed Hope is over, we will not be resurrected, it, resurrection, has been fulfilled.

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  10. Believing all is fulfilled is a hopeless theology.

    8 vote(s)
    47.1%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth
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    Are we now living in the new heaven and earth, where, according to 2 Peter 3:13 righteousness dwells in it?

    "But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells." 2 Peter 3:13

    Some say yes, this is it, this is all there is to it.

    Well, isn't this wonderful?

    Or, are we still awaiting this new world, and rejecting that this has and is fulfilled "spiritually" and that we are living there as of right now?

    If this has been fulfilled "spiritually" then much of the NT doesn't apply to us, and according to some there is no resurrection future.

    I however await the literal, physical fulfillment of this passage, rejecting that it is some rather anemic spiritual fulfillment that is already in motion, based mostly upon an allegorical theology and rejection of physical fulfillment and rejection of physical bodily resurrection still yet future.

    I believe most of this theology that rejects literal fulfillment in favor of it being merely spiritual is a neo-gnosticism, and a hopeless theology.

    I've seen so many people, including pastors losing hope over this teaching. I believe it is a fatal error akin to Hymenaeus gnostic rejection of a literal, physical return and resurrection, dashing all literal hopes into merely a spiritual fulfillment, overthrowing the faith of some.

    - Peace and Grace to His
     
    #1 preacher4truth, Jul 15, 2011
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  2. JesusFan

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    God PROMISED me a new glorofied Body, that will be NO more sicknes/disease/aging NO more wars etc, and that Jesus will be ONLY God and saviour Man worships here on earth!

    Either God lied to us, or we STILL have not had the Second Coming of jesus!
     
  3. preacher4truth

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    And C. H. Spurgeon says: "The Bible is not a compilation of cleaver allegories or instructive poetical traditions; it teaches literal facts, and reveals tremendous realities. It will be an ill day for the church if the pulpit should ever appear to indorse the skeptical hypothesis that Holy Scripture is but the record of a refined mythology, in which globules of truth are dissolved in seas of poetic and imaginary detail." And he adds: "Even in the days of the Apostles there was a tendency to adulterate, spiritualize, and philosophize the simple, old-fashioned gospel, to regard facts as mysteries or parables, and to labor to find a spiritual meaning in them till they went so far as to deny them as actual facts. Seeking a recondite meaning, they overlooked the fact itself, losing the substance in a foolish preference for the shadow. While God set before them glorious events which fill Heaven with amazement, they showed their foolish wisdom by accepting the plain historical facts as myths to be interpreted or riddles to be solved. He who believed as a little child was pushed aside as a fool, that the disputer and the scribe might come in to mystify simplicity, and hide the light of truth. They spirited away the incarnation and the resurrection, making them mean something very deep and mystical, and in the process they took away the actual facts altogether. Among men there is still a craving after new meanings, refinements upon old doctrines, and spiritualizations of literal facts. They tear out the bowels of the truth, and seek to palm off upon us in its stead the dead carcass stuffed with theories and speculations."

    Check this link:

    http://primitivebaptist.info/mambo/mambots/editors/content/view/833/36/
     
  4. kyredneck

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    #4 kyredneck, Jul 15, 2011
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  5. preacher4truth

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    First, there was no skipping over. Why assume I saw and did this? Secondly, I shared a link supporting my own personal beliefs here. I believe the other to be unscriprural.

    I'm only addressing one eschatological viewpoint in this OP, not all (or rather, the two opposing). Your assumption on Hassell is all hypothesis, and it lends itself toward this doctrine which I oppose, and the main objective of those who hold to it; to look for converts to this teaching, more zealously than looking to reach the elect with the Good News; 2 Timothy 2:10.

    I believe the teaching to be of neo-gnosticism, and highly influenced by higher criticism/liberal theology.

    - Peace
     
    #5 preacher4truth, Jul 15, 2011
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  6. revmwc

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    Where is our crown if it has come?

    2 Timothy 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

    I would love to have my crown now of course it is awaiting me when my Lord returns as long as I keep fatihfully believing HE is coming imminently not immediately. Imminent per merriam webster means = ready to take place.

    As quickly means: 1quick adj \ˈkwik\

    Definition of QUICK
    1: not dead : living, alive
    2: acting or capable of acting with speed: as
    a (1) : fast in understanding, thinking, or learning : mentally agile <a quick wit> <quick thinking> (2) : reacting to stimuli with speed and keen sensitivity (3) : aroused immediately and intensely <quick tempers>
    b (1) : fast in development or occurrence <a quick succession of events> (2) : done or taking place with rapidity <gave them a quick look>
    c : marked by speed, readiness, or promptness of physical movement <walked with quick steps>
    d : inclined to hastiness (as in action or response) <quick to criticize>
    e : capable of being easily and speedily prepared <a quick and tasty dinner>

    Wow look fast in devlopment when the Lord comes fast the snatching away will happen fast.

    Just as the events will soon occur:
    Soon from Websters:
    soon adv \ˈsün, especially New England ˈsu̇n\

    Definition of SOON
    1a obsolete : at once : immediately
    b : without undue time lapse : before long <soon after sunrise>
    2: in a prompt manner : speedily <as soon as possible> <the sooner the better> <no sooner said than done>
    3archaic : before the usual time
    4: in agreement with one's choice or preference : willingly <I'd just as soon walk as drive>
    He will come promptly when He comes and the events of Revelation for those churches occured promptly.
     
  7. kyredneck

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    Not.

    More from Hassell (I agree with most of this):

    http://salmun.cwahi.net/histry/rel/chrch/sect/hcog/hcog.htm#08

    Excerpts from Hassells' Church History (by Elders C.B. & son Sylvester); Chapter 8; The Destruction of Jerusalem-The Book of Revelation

    “The Roman Empire, previously under Divine restraint (2 Thess. 2:6, 7), protected Christianity; but "openly assumed the character of Anti-christ with fire and sword (Rev. 13-18) in the tenth year of Nero's reign, A.D. 64......”

    “..."There is scarcely another period in history so full of vice, corruption and disaster as the six years between the Neronian persecution and the destruction of Jerusalem. The prophetic description in the last days by our Lord began to be fulfilled before the generation to which He spoke had passed away, and the day of judgment seemed to be near at hand. So the Christians believed, and had good reason to believe. Even to earnest heathen minds (such as those of Seneca and Tacitus) that period looked as dark as midnight, according to their own descriptions. The most unfortunate country in that period was Palestine, where an ancient and venerable nation brought upon itself unspeakable suffering and destruction. The tragedy of Jerusalem prefigures in miniature the final judgment, and in this light it is represented in the eschatological discourses of Christ, who foresaw the end from the beginning." - P. Schaff....”

    “.....The Jews crucified the Lord of life and glory, and persecuted His followers in the most cruel manner until their nationality was put an end to - a period of about 40 years from the Savior's death. The Jews asked that His blood should be on them and on their children (Matthew 27:25), and their imprecation was answered. He had already foretold of their overthrow and the certainty that God's vengeance would fall on them. Said He, "That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.....(Matthew 23:36-38).....(Matthew 24:1, 2)....(Luke 19:43, 44)....As the accomplishment of these predictions ended in the utter abolition of the Jewish church and state, a constitution which was originally founded in Divine appointment, and had existed during a period of fifteen hundred years; and as it was unquestionably the most awful revolution in all the religious dispensations of God, and which, moreover, in various ways, contributed greatly to the success of the gospel....”

    “....The country swarmed with banditti; Jerusalem became the prey of false prophets and pretended workers of miracles, who were continually inciting discontent and sedition; and numbers of assassins, under the name of Sicarii, abounded in all the cities and towns of the country, committing the most horrible murders under the pretext of religious and patriotic zeal. These Sicarii could be hired by any one to assassinate an enemy or any person who seemed to stand in the way of another. The Jewish priests, and even the pontiffs, made no hesitation in hiring these assassins to rid them of all such persons as were obnoxious to them...the very priesthood engaged in war with each other...parties were formed, and, each party hiring a squad of the Sicarii to accompany them dreadful encounters often occurred, wherein many were murdered, both in Jerusalem and other towns; and even the very temple itself was defiled with the blood of these victims.....”

    “...the Romans might easily have made themselves masters of the city of Jerusalem: and it was to the universal surprise that Cestius called off his troops. Though the war continued, Jerusalem was not besieged again till April, A.D. 70. During this interval of about two years and a half the Christians in Jerusalem, remembering Christ's words of warning (Matthew 24:15; Mark 13:14; Luke 21:21), fled beyond the Jordan to Pella, in the north of Perea, in the mountains of Gilead, some sixty miles northeast of Jerusalem, where king Herod Agrippa II. opened to them a safe asylum; and thus they escaped the horrors of the final siege of Jerusalem.”
    ( see: http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=63301 )

    “While Vespasian was resting his army in winter quarters at Caesarea, the Jews were exhausting themselves in Jerusalem by their factions, and warring against each other. They were at that time, no doubt, the worst population on the face of the globe, and eventually suffered more than any other....Josephus says they acted more like infernal beings than men. [SEE MT 12:45].....John of Gischala, who fled from that place to Jerusalem to escape the clutches of Vespasian, had placed himself at the head of the dominant party, and practiced the most unheard-of cruelties upon the innocent and inoffensive. At one time he and his party put to death twelve thousand persons of noble extraction, and in the flower of their age, butchering them in the most horrible manner. In short, the whole nation trembled at the mention of the names of these men, and did not dare to be seen or heard to weep for the murder of their nearest relatives nor even to give them burial.....”
    (see: http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1671933#post1671933
    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1700895#post1700895 )

    The temple was burned on the tenth of August, the same day of the year it was said that the first temple was destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar. Josephus states that the hill on which the temple stood was seething hot, and seemed enveloped to its base in one sheet of flame; that the blood was larger in quantity than the fire, and all the ground was covered with corpses. The Romans planted their eagles or standards on the temple ruins, offered their sacrifices to them, and proclaimed Titus Imperator with the greatest declamations of joy. Thus was fulfilled Christ's prophecy concerning the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place.”

    “....In almost every chapter we find Josephus also ascribing these dreadful calamities, and the final ruin of his nation, city and temple, to an overruling power; to the offended Deity; to the sins of the people; but nowhere more pathetically than in that chapter in which he sums up a number of dreadful warnings, sent beforehand, not so much to reduce them to obedience as to make them discern the Almighty hand that was ever pouring out the awful vials of His wrath upon them (Josephus' Wars, b.6, ch.5, and b.5, ch.13).”
     
  8. kyredneck

    kyredneck
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    Hassell continued:


    “..“While Christ made the one essential thing the relation of man to Himself, He did not formally abolish the ceremonial law, but, on the other hand, He was born under the law and lived under it, and strictly and perfectly obeyed it for His people; He said nothing about doing away with circumcision and the temple worship (except in a general manner as in John 4:21); He left the separation of Christianity and Judaism to the Spirit and Providence of God. Even Paul, the great Apostle of Christian freedom, "more than once religiously visited the temple, and accommodated himself outwardly, in various ways, to Judaism. But now the time had come for the church to be delivered from its Jewish swaddling-bands, and God Himself came down in a terrific providence, and destroyed the house in which He had been worshiped, and gave His cause and people the spiritual emancipation which He had designed for them"....”

    “"While John, in the Revelation, had in view, primarily, the overthrow of Jerusalem and of heathen Rome, the two great foes of Christianity at that time, his vision was not confined to these momentous events.....”

    “But it is the opinion of the great majority of Bible scholars that there will be but one more personal advent of Christ, and that it will be after the Millennium. They maintain that the idea of a pre-millennial advent is Jewish in its origin, and Judaizing or materializing in its tendency; that it disparages the present, the dispensation of the Holy Ghost; that it is inconsistent with the Scriptures, which teach that Christ comes but twice, to atone and to judge (Heb. 9:28); that the Heavens must receive Christ until the times of the restitution of all things (Acts 3:21); that Christ's kingdom is not of this world, but spiritual (Matthew 13:11-44; John 17:36; Rom. 14:17); that it was not to be confined to the Jews (Matthew 8:11, 12); that regeneration is the essential antecedent of admission to it (John 3:3-5); that the blessings of the kingdom are purely spiritual, as repentance, pardon, faith, etc. (Matthew 3:2, 11; Acts 5:31; Gal. 5:22, 23, etc.); that the kingdom of Christ has already come, He having sat upon the throne of His Father David ever since His ascension (Acts 2:29-36; 3:13-15; 4:26-28; 5:29-31; Heb. 10:12, 13; Rev. 3:7-12), so that the Old Testament prophecies predicting this kingdom must refer to the present dispensation of grace, and not to a future reign of Christ on earth in person among men in the flesh; and that the church is to be complete at His next coming (1 Thess. 3:13; 2 Thess. 1:10).”
     
  9. kyredneck

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    You didn't know what you were talking about concerning R.C. Sproul, likewise with Sylvester Hassell. You really should be more thorough in your research.
     
    #9 kyredneck, Jul 15, 2011
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  10. revmwc

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    Talk about twisting scripture.

    This part here is espeically intersting "He having sat upon the throne of His Father David ever since His ascension" I never knew David's throne was in heaven next to God the Father. In fact I believe David's throne was on earth and he ruled over Israel and died with Solomon following him. That is the Kingdom which is yet to come for Jesus.
     
  11. kyredneck

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    [delete]

    never mind, i've got better things to do...
     
    #11 kyredneck, Jul 15, 2011
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  12. JesusFan

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    Doesn't prophet Ezekiel predict a coming restoration of Isreal in last days, and that servant david, whom I believe is actually Messiah Christ, ruling from Jerusalem over them?
     
  13. revmwc

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    It might actually say He rules Zion which is reference to Jerusalem. I just found it interesting that the Preterist see David having ruled from Heaven seated next to God the Father, when scripture is clear David's throne was in Jerusalem on this physical earth. That really twist scriputre to fit a teaching.
     
  14. Iconoclast

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    The last days started at the cross......
     
  15. convicted1

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    (((((AMEN!!!!!))))):thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::wavey:
     
  16. convicted1

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    And to add to this wonderful post:

    Joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

    29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

    30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.

    31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come.

    32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.


    Here is where this was fulfilled:

    Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

    17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

    18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

    19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

    20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

    21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

    So, as you see the sequence of each of these two passgaes(Joel and Acts), that before that "great and notable day of the Lord", that the moon shall be turned into blood, and the sun shall be darkened. This can not, and does not reference the end times. Why? Becuase it states after this occurance that "whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." If this was a reference to the end times, then no one could call upon His name, because time would be no more. That "great and notable day of the Lord" is referring to His death, on the cross.

    i am I AM's!!

    Willis
     
  17. convicted1

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    To clarify where I stand on the end times:

    1.) I believe that Jesus is coming again in the cloud. 1 Thes. 4
    2.) I believe in a general resurrection.
    3.)Those who died in faith, will be risen and given a new spiritual body(glorified body), and it will ascend to the cloud on which Jesus is on, and will reunite with the soul that comes with Him.
    4.)Those who are alive and are saved will be changed in a moment and twinkling of an eye, given a new spiritual body(glorified body), and they too, will ascend to the cloud.
    5.)Those who are here and lost will be given a new spiritual body(not glorified) that will never be burned up.
    6.)Those who died in their sins, will be risen and given this same spiritual body(not glorified), their souls will be brought out of hell, and reunited with that resurrected spiritual body, and they, along with those who were sinners at Jesus' second coming, will be cast into the lake of fire to torment for all eternity.
    7.)This earth that we dwell on will burn up. The very elements will melt with fervent heat. We then will be part of New Jerusalem, that John saw as a bride adorned for her Husband.

    So, I am a partial-preterist, but the second coming, as far as I can tell from reading the Word, has yet to take place.

    i am I AM's!!

    Willis
     
  18. preacher4truth

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    I posted an article from Hassell. I agree with his article and really don't care what he has to say otherwise, as he has "apostatized" from that.

    R C Sproul believes Christ is coming and this is not it.

    I believe you feel and believe differently, thus my point.
     
    #18 preacher4truth, Jul 16, 2011
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  19. kyredneck

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    The fact is, twice now, in your apparently ill-prepared crusade to stamp out Preterism, you've cited two commentators that you presumed to support your views who actually are of the other camp. It belies the hastiness and shallowness of your approach to this matter, and also your ignorance of the topic. If you want to be a dragon slayer, you'd best take the time to learn something about dragons.
     
  20. preacher4truth

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    Stamp out preterism? That's not my duty. Defending the truth? Certainly.

    Let's see, you quote everyone who promotes your teaching, but if I do this, it's a no no? I see, we have a double-standard, correct?

    I'm now ignorant of the topic? Not quite or close, but that you are all twisted over me doing what you do is telltale of your walk imo. You're sounding angry about this, i think it is linked to my next paragraph.

    I also find it interesting you won't answer my question on whether you are evangelistic in trying to reach the lost, or mission oriented for the same endeavor.

    I believe you're more interested in spreading a Hymenaeus like doctrine for the garnering of converts than you are the above.

    Of course, I believe anyone who believes all is fulfilled also believes most of the NT doesn't apply to us now. What a sad religion. "If only in this life we have hope in Him, we are of all men most miserable." Some peoples religion makes them miserable and hateful. That's a shame.

    You can discount my beliefs with personal attacks and innuendos that are actually incorrect if you need to and as you have done. But we all know what this means in the realm of debate.

    - Peace
     

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