Is this possible?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by DHK, Apr 11, 2014.

  1. DHK

    DHK
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    Is it possible for one man to ask forgiveness on behalf of the sins of others, or is that prerogative of Christ alone?

    For example:
    https://ca.news.yahoo.com/pope-francis-asks-forgiveness-priests-abused-children-115745087.html
     
  2. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    Acts 7, NASB
    59 They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!"
    60 Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them!" Having said this, he fell asleep. [Emphasis added]
     
  3. kyredneck

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    And while I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before Jehovah my God for the holy mountain of my God; Dan 9:20
     
  4. DHK

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    More than one person was personally sinning against one person Stephen, whom he forgave. They sinned against him. He forgave them on his behalf not on the behalf of others.
     
  5. FriendofSpurgeon

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    Here is the quote:

    "to personally ask for forgiveness for the damage they have done for having sexually abused children"

    As the head of this organization, I believe that it is appropriate for him to ask others for forgiveness. Not sure why this is an issue or even a question.
     
  6. DHK

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    Why?
    Take it a step further.
    Our government (that is where I live) is not only being "forced" to apologize on behalf of the RCC and their government sponsored schools for the crimes that the priests did in the '60's and '70's put also to pay back compensation. This is my money, tax-payers money. Why should I, "indirectly" be involved in apologizing for something I never did, I was never a part of, and on top of that pay them compensation? Does this seem right to you?

    On a personal level is it any different if you were to step into the court of the alleged criminal of the former para-Olympian Pistorius, now accused of murdering his wife, and on his behalf forgive the victim and the victim's family?
    They want justice from him, not from you.
     
  7. Revmitchell

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    Dan 9:4 And I prayed unto the LORD my God, and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and dreadful God, keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments;
    Dan 9:5 We have sinned, and have committed iniquity, and have done wickedly, and have rebelled, even by departing from thy precepts and from thy judgments:
    Dan 9:6 Neither have we hearkened unto thy servants the prophets, which spake in thy name to our kings, our princes, and our fathers, and to all the people of the land.
    Dan 9:7 O Lord, righteousness belongeth unto thee, but unto us confusion of faces, as at this day; to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and unto all Israel, that are near, and that are far off, through all the countries whither thou hast driven them, because of their trespass that they have trespassed against thee.
    Dan 9:8 O Lord, to us belongeth confusion of face, to our kings, to our princes, and to our fathers, because we have sinned against thee.
    Dan 9:9 To the Lord our God belong mercies and forgivenesses, though we have rebelled against him;
    Dan 9:10 Neither have we obeyed the voice of the LORD our God, to walk in his laws, which he set before us by his servants the prophets.
    Dan 9:11 Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him.
     
  8. DHK

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    What is your point here?
    Israel was one nation under God--a theocracy. Each individual was related to each other even by blood--descendents from the 12 tribes. They were collectively one: by tribes, nationality, but most of all through a theocracy, where any such sin in the OP was punishable by immediate death. The very thought of such sins being atoned for by ancestor 3-4 generations removed from the victims would be beyond belief.
     
  9. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    Then who is he asking not to "hold sin against them"? Surely you can't be claiming that is addressed to himself?
    I agree, particularly with that last sentence.
    I fail to see how this has any bearing on it whatsoever. You are not the leadership of the Canadian government, nor are you Catholic. Neither of these events, actual or hypothetical, affects you in any way.
     
    #9 thisnumbersdisconnected, Apr 11, 2014
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  10. DHK

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    Consider the holocaust. The Jews did not rest until they hunted down every last criminal that they could find that was involved in the crimes that they perpetuated. It was not just Hitler, or an apology from the present Chancellor of Germany that they wanted. They wanted justice from the actual criminals even if they were in their nineties and approaching 100 years of age. And for the most part they succeeded.
    An apology from the government of Germany was unacceptable!!

    These crimes by the RCC are far more recent than WWII. Most of the priests are still living. They should be the ones put on trial, and they should pay for their crimes. A little speech by the Pope, saying "We are sorry," is not justice. Many of these people went through horrific crimes--molested as children, raped, beaten, etc.
    The monsters of these crimes still live, harbored by the Pope and his underlings and only "I am sorry" to the victims comes forth. Horrendous! Where is justice in that?

    Recently it was found out that a retired Baptist pastor had been involved in a similar case. He will appear before court and face his accuser(s). Justice will be done. He may face a prison term even though he is in his sixties presently. At least there is justice done among Protestants that I know of. They aren't hidden by the cloak of the Pope. They aren't protected pedophiles hiding from the force of the law.
    The pope cannot ask forgiveness on behalf of other criminals.
    Show me Scripture for that--NT scripture. If a person is to repent he must personally repent. That is what Scripture teaches.
     
    #10 DHK, Apr 11, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 11, 2014
  11. steaver

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    There was a local pastor here in my immediate area who pastored this church for about 28 years. He was known for being one of the better expository preaching pastors and preached the word with authority. He was well liked for his preaching of the word even though he was a bit legalistic.

    Anyways, he ended up falling into temptation and taking advantage of a thirteen year old girl's emotional condition, and they engaged in sexual situations on three occasions. He is now spending 7 years in sate prison. Where are all the Catholic priest child molesters spending time right now? Do you think the pope doesn't know who they are? Is the pope encouraging them to turn themselves in? Is the pope revealing to the authorities who they are? He should be pressing the authorities to make arrest!
     
  12. Van

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    Components of a Biblical prayer

    From Nehemiah 1:1-11

    Adoration – O Lord, God of heaven, the great and awesome God who keeps our covenant of love.

    Confession – I confess the sins of those in my community, including myself.

    Laying claim to the promises of God – if you are unfaithful, I will scatter, but if you return to me and obey my commandments, I will gather in the chosen dwelling place.

    Asking for help in the ministry of God – Give your servant success by granting him favor in the presence of this man.

    Notice how central the community of believer is in the prayer, it is the community that is blessed by the covenant of love, it is not only I but the community who has gone astray, it is community that will be gathered, and my efforts are to help my community.

    To often we ask God to fix a problem supernaturally, rather than lighting our path as we carry out His ministry. These sort of appeals for miracles are akin to testing God, something Jesus taught we should not do.

    Thus I would say we can pray and confess not only our individual sins, but also confess the sins of our community, which would include various assemblies of worship. But then we should consider our course going forward, and ask for God's blessings on the steps needed to fix our ministry and the ministries of the community.

    The lets appear to God's love and put this fiasco behind us approach does not address changing the behavior of ourselves or our community.
     
  13. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    Show me where Pope Francis asked that prosecutions stop, in light of his seeking forgiveness.

    He has not.

    He has said in the past that the church has done more than anyone to root out the evil, yet the church continues to be attacked.

    He is partially right, as the church's initial response was to attempt to hide the crimes, but has since become a dogged untangler of the evil web.

    So tell me how your comparison is accurate, and tell me why his seeking forgiveness and expressing a wish that he could take the evil upon himself is unbiblical?
     
  14. prophet

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    He fell no where.
    He was a spiritual and sexual grievous wolf.
    Read Jude.
    Wake up.
     
  15. steaver

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    He fell, being a "prophet" you should understand Christians are not sinless. Have you sinned lately? Like this week even? Maybe even this day?

    I have.
     
  16. DHK

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    https://ca.news.yahoo.com/pope-francis-asks-forgiveness-priests-abused-children-115745087.html

    He is compelled personally; He is aware of this evil.
    I sit and watch the news on the TV as I type. I see how a military man is being convicted of the same type of immorality--no breaks.
    A former teacher also--no breaks.
    Only in the RCC are pedophiles, homosexuals, etc. hidden and protected.
    The victims, their friends, family, community, and others know who these monsters are and where they are. It is simple. They should be brought to justice not protected by the Pope, with the hypocritical statement: "we are doing all we can."
    Is doing all we can "protecting our priests for as long as we can?"
    Do you really believe he is telling the truth?
    If he was telling the truth he would immediately turn the culprits over to the law. The UN has been asking for years that the authorities in the RCC comply with the law. They haven't.
     
  17. prophet

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    Predators don't fall. They enter in to devour.
    He preyed on a sheep from God's flock.
    This wasn't a "fall".
    David 'fell'

    Mohammed was a pervert.

    Joseph Smith was a pervert.

    And this pastor was a pervert.

    All three were religious leaders who had followers who believed in them.
    All three preyed on children, using the access that their religious leadership position gave them.
     
  18. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    You didn't answer either of my questions.
     
  19. DHK

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    What prosecutions? Many of us can point to thousands of victims that have no justice. The ones that have committed these crimes are still at large and nothing is done about it. As referred to earlier on other threads, the UN has urged the RCC to cooperate with the justice system in a more open manner.
    A bold face lie. They are the perpetrators of more crimes in history than any other religion.
    If he is going to gain any real legitimacy he must act quickly and openly. The act of hiding priests needs to stop. The act of bringing them to the courts must begin. They aren't "church matters," but civil court matters.
    The Jews did not demand an apology from the government of Germany.
    They went after the perpetrators of the crimes against them personally--those who actually tortured them. They were not satisfied until justice was done; until the crimes against them were paid for. They didn't want an all-encompassing apology three or more generations later from an official head of state. That is meaningless.

    And so it is today. The people who have suffered at the hands of RCC pedophiles and others want justice from them personally. They don't want to see those people walking the street. They want to see them in jail just like you would see any other pedophile from any other walk of life. Why should the RCC be above the law?? Is there a reason for this very special dispensation?
     
  20. DHK

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    Here is one of the reports that I was referring to:
    Read more here:
    http://news.ca.msn.com/top-stories/...wed-priests-to-rape-children-un-report-says-1
     

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