Is this salvation?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by mima, Mar 27, 2006.

  1. mima

    mima
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2006
    Messages:
    395
    Likes Received:
    0
    While at the Dollar store to buy wax for my car the following conversation took place.
    Manager -- Are you finding everything you want? Me -- Yes I found everything.
    Me -- May I ask you a question?
    Manager -- Sure.
    Me -- Are you absolutely, positively, certain sure, no doubt in your mind, that you will go to heaven when you die?
    Manager -- After a pause, well I sure hope so, I think I will.
    Me -- Why do you get to go?
    Manager -- Long pause, well because God is merciful, and I'm not too bad a person.
    Me -- Well here's what the Bible says about this, in 3 Different Places in the Bible it says, "whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved."
    Manager -- OK!
    Me -- Does okay mean you want to call on the name of the Lord?
    Manager -- YES, very definite
    Me -- All right then pray with me. I then led him in the following prayer.( Lord Jesus, I ask you to come into my life, forgive me of my sins, and save my soul, I accept you as my personal savior right now.) After saying this prayer this person was very happy and when I asked them would they go to heaven if they were to die right now? They said yes. I then asked this person how they felt down in their gut, in their innermost being? And they answered, I feel a tangling, a tightness in my stomach.
    So there is the conversation that took place. The question to you is do you believe this person has salvation now?
     
  2. bapmom

    bapmom
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2005
    Messages:
    3,091
    Likes Received:
    0
    mima,

    what was he calling on the name of the Lord for? If this is the entirety of the conversation than I don't think the manager had any idea why he NEEDED to call on the name of the Lord. It is more like that was just a part of the "magical formula" that he had accidentally skipped. There is a specific reason we need to call on the name of the Lord, and that is because we are sinners (of any stripe or degree) and cannot justify ourselves to God in any way on our own.

    There must be an understanding of the Scripture first, before the person can call on Jesus with any sincerity and any true belief. Perhaps this manager knew what you meant because of his previous background, but you don't know that because you did not ask him what he already understood. And at this point, I seriously doubt that he had a salvation experience at that point. If I were you I'd go back and follow up on that one.
     
  3. donnA

    donnA
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2000
    Messages:
    23,354
    Likes Received:
    0
    If this is all the conversation, I agree with bapmon, he knows nothing about sin, and salvation, and why he was calling on the name of the Lord, as far as he can see he's alright because he's not that bad a person, and he now knows nothing more then that, then he did before talking with you.
     
  4. Helen

    Helen
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/Helen2.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2001
    Messages:
    11,703
    Likes Received:
    1
    Why on earth did you approach him that way? If he is not already a Christian, then you just got racked up in his brain as one more "Christian nut' he had to deal with and get out of the way without offending because that would be bad for business!

    If he was already a Christian, the question was not necessary.

    If he was converted due to your conversation, that is truly a miracle, for most people hate it when others discuss faith without them opening up the subject first.

    When the Holy Spirit called Philip to deal with the Ethiopian, the directions were simply to 'walk alongside.' That is our first job. Be friends. Care about others.

    Then we are to be ready to ANSWER questions, not bombard others with them. If this man was not a Christian before, there is a very good chance that all the OP encounter did was harden him a bit more against the Christian point of view.

    edit: reading this again I realize it sounds harsh. I don't mean it that way and I apologize. If the Holy Spirit was calling you to that conversation then God bles you! But please be careful, because so many people think that Christians are nuts and to be avoided at all costs due to that sort of approach.

    And I do hope you make sure there is some kind of follow up for that man. Please tell your pastor about him and have your pastor or an elder in your church visit him.
     
  5. Helen

    Helen
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/Helen2.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2001
    Messages:
    11,703
    Likes Received:
    1
    That "tingling, tightness in the stomach" is what the Mormons call a 'burning in the bosom' and that is what indicates to THEM that their testimony is true!
     
  6. bapmom

    bapmom
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2005
    Messages:
    3,091
    Likes Received:
    0
    Being from the West Coast myself, Helen, I understand why you'd say that most people hate to be approached with these sorts of questions. However, in many other areas of our country this is not the case. Here in Milwaukee we have great responses to just walking up to people and asking them the initial question. We then can determine if the person has TIME and/or INCLINATION to talk more about God and the Bible and what He says about salvation.

    I agree absolutely that we have to be willing and able to answer other people's questions, but we do not have to wait for them to ask all the time. And they absolutely deserve a good, in-depth conversation depending on how much understanding they bring with them to the discussion.
     
  7. Andy T.

    Andy T.
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2005
    Messages:
    3,147
    Likes Received:
    0
    Or it could just be indigestion.
     
  8. Dustin

    Dustin
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2006
    Messages:
    696
    Likes Received:
    0
    I used to get a "burning in the bosom" doing all sorts of things but it wasn't being saved...
     
  9. Petrel

    Petrel
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2005
    Messages:
    1,408
    Likes Received:
    0
    So true! I've even felt irked myself a couple of times when strangers came up to me and tried to witness to me. It makes me feel torn--I know they're trying to do something good, but I don't particularly like it when strangers ask me personal questions.
     
  10. J.R.Maddox

    J.R.Maddox
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2006
    Messages:
    121
    Likes Received:
    0
    As far as is this salvation....I don't know and neither does anyone else on this board. As far as dealing with the issues that IMO need to be dealt with when sharing Christ, I would say that they were absolutely NOT dealt with. What is Sin? Repentance? The new life? Forgiveness? If you ask folks today do they want to go to Heaven they most always will say "YES!" Whether they go or not is based upon their proper understanding of the issue and their response as the Holy Spirit leads and draws. Did that happen? Again, I don't know but I do agree that follow up is a must in this case. As far as approaching him...I do not for one instant buy the bag of goods that you cannot approach folks this way...it may not be the most prudent approach and then again it may be just what the Holy Spirit had in mind. I would have certainly made an attempt to further explore the issue with the man. And as far as the tightness and tangling in the gut...the same thing happened to me when LSU beat the longhorns in Overtime the other day

    Grace and Peace
    J
     
  11. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2005
    Messages:
    9,031
    Likes Received:
    0
    I am grateful to see such wise counsel being given here. Mima, my dear brother, your zeal to see the lost saved is probably second to none on this board. But a person who does not realize he is lost, and why he is lost, is not ready to hear the good news. Please consider what your brothers and sisters are saying here.
     
  12. Karen

    Karen
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2000
    Messages:
    2,610
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'm not from the West Coast, but what bapmom says sounds accurate to me.
    There are real cultural differences in various parts of the country.
    mima, I'm glad for your zeal. But a fundamental part of the Gospel involves repentance from sin.
    We sometimes use words like "sin", the meaning of which seems very obvious to us. But we need to explain them to people who have not necessarily been to church very much.

    Karen
     
  13. rjprince

    rjprince
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    1,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    OK. I've read this enough without speaking up.

    Repentance from sin...

    Somebody here show me one passage that says unbelievers must "repent from sin" to be saved.

    I do not go along with a "magic prayer" but neither can you add to the gospel to make it just a little bit more difficult. 150 times the Bible says that you are saved by believing alone, or by faith alone.

    The Gospel of John does not even contain the word repent one time....

    "Repent of sins..." I am about sick of hearing this. SHOW ME ONE PASSAGE.... And, BTW, repentance that BRINGS remission, or forgiveness of sins, is not the same as "repentance of, or from sins"

    Show me one, if you can...
     
  14. Karen

    Karen
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2000
    Messages:
    2,610
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'm not sure how to answer the fine difference you seem to be making between "repent of sins" and "repentance that BRINGS remission".
    I was not saying that repentance is a work we do that saves us. God saves us.

    What do you do with verses such as Matthew 4:17,
    Ezekiel 18: 30-32, Acts 2: 38-39, Acts 3:19, I John 1: 8-10?
    Then there is Luke 13: 2-5 where the Lord Jesus says, "Unless you repent, you too will all perish."

    Believing and faith have content.

    Karen
     
  15. rjprince

    rjprince
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    1,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    Repentance, as a condition for salvation, is not a turning from sin or a grief and sorrow over sin. These elements are present in passages that speak of a believer repenting, but seldom present in passages which speak of an unbeliever repenting and trusting Christ. The word that is always used in passages relating to saving faith means to change the mind. Unbelievers must change their mind and recognize that they are sinners and totally without the capacity to do anything to save themselves. They must turn from reliance on self-effort and fully trust in the sufficiency of the death of Jesus on the cross. They could not turn from sin, it is both within and without. Some people are joyful at learning of God’s grace in providing salvation. If repentance for salvation required an overwhelming sorrow over sin, one would have to say that a person who was focused on the grace and mercy of God at the moment of salvation was therefore not saved. Some may experience a deep conviction of sin, but this is not what saves them. Salvation comes as a result of their faith in the total sufficiency of Christ’s death on the cross.
     
  16. Karen

    Karen
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2000
    Messages:
    2,610
    Likes Received:
    0
    These two sentences seem to partially contradict each other. I say turn from sin. You say change your mind.
    I suspect that if you and I talked long enough we would find that we are in complete agreement.
    But we probably haven't talked that long, yet.
    [​IMG]

    Karen
     
  17. rjprince

    rjprince
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    1,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    Karen,
    “What do you do with verses such as Matthew 4:17, Ezekiel 18: 30-32, Acts 2: 38-39, Acts 3:19, I John 1: 8-10? Then there is Luke 13: 2-5 where the Lord Jesus says, "Unless you repent, you too will all perish."

    In Matt 4:17 Jesus is preaching the gospel of the kingdom, not the gospel of the cross. In Matt 10, Jesus specifically forbade the 12 to preach to Samaritans or Gentiles, but only to Jews. This is not the gospel of salvation by grace through faith in the Cross-Work of the Lord Jesus...

    In Ezek 18 the prophet is calling the nation to turn from her wickedness to avoid certain judgement from God. The Hebrew word is shoob and means to turn, it is not the same idea as is conveyed by the Greek metanoew. It certainly does not convey the idea of personal faith in the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ.... Apples and oranges...

    1John 1:8-10 is dealing with believers who are confessing sin in their lives, not unbelievers who need to trust in the Lord Jesus Christ as their Savior...

    In Luke 13, the Jews supposed that the tower fell on those men because they were so wicked. The Jews thought they were OK because they were children of Abraham and kept the Law from their youth. These guys did not have a lot of gross sin to repent of, they were very righteous according to the law. The problem was that the righteousness of the law could never justify men before God. They needed the righteousness which comes by simple faith in God (Gal 2:16).

    Acts 2 and 3, now we are getting somewhere! The problem was that the Jews did not believe that Jesus was God, or that He was Messiah. Peter preached that this same Jesus who they killed was both Lord (God) and Christ (Messiah). They needed to change their minds about who He was (the only way of salvation); who they were (sinners bound for hell); and what they need to do about it (believe on the Lord Jesus Christ).

    If a person thinks that sin is OK and that God will not judge them for their sins, they need to repent about that – change their mind and understand that they are sinful and deserve eternal punishment in the lake of fire forever.

    BUT – THINK ABOUT THIS – people do not go to Hell for their sins. They go to Hell because they have rejected God and Christ. The Great White throne is not about who goes to heaven and who goes to hell. That has already been settled by then. It is about demonstrating that God is just in condemning them on the basis of their sins and about the fact that works cannot save...

    Who is lost? The person who does not repent? Or the person who does not believe?

    OK. I admit it. Trick question. If a person believes, they will have already repented. But a person can repent without believing. No time for that now,

    Focus on this. “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoseover believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” Is that sufficient or should John have put repent in there somewhere?

    The way that we have corrupted the simple doctrine of repentance is causing a great deal of confusion today. Repent means to change your mind (in salvation passages). John avoids the confusion by not even using the word once. If a person can get saved reading the gospel of John without reading about repentance, I BELIEVE WE HAVE ERRED IN MAKING IT SUCH A CRITICAL ELEMENT in our witnessing. And thereby we distort the pure and simple gospel message, and perhaps even introduce an element of works by telling people, “OK. So the Idea of FREE GIFT does not sound quite right to you? OK. Why don’t you turn from you sins, that is something you can do, will that make you feel more like you did something for your salvation?” That is a perversion of the Gospel and IT WILL NOT SAVE!!! IT IS ADDING WORKS TO SALVATION and IT IS AN ACCURSED MESSAGE (Gal 1:8).
     
  18. rjprince

    rjprince
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    1,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    We may be more in agreement that we thought at first, but Turn from sin is a work. Change your mind is a thought. One is consistent with salvation by grace through faith, believing, the other adds a subtle degree of works to the gospel.
     
  19. Frenchy

    Frenchy
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2006
    Messages:
    796
    Likes Received:
    0
    I too agree with bapmom and others that there is no conviction of sin since it wasn't even preached.

    When reading the story i have my doubts it was even true for this main reason alone. you are in the dollar store which means there must have been others around that needed this guys attention. I am sure he was way to busy to SERIOUSLY think about what he was doing. JMHO
     
  20. Frenchy

    Frenchy
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2006
    Messages:
    796
    Likes Received:
    0
    I ABSOLUTLY AGREE ! [​IMG]
     

Share This Page

Loading...