Is this salvation?

I seriously doubt the salvation of the person in the example. It is a "Pray this magic prayer" salvation.

As long as we are talking about conviction, lets go back to the Word and see what the Holy Spirit convicts of...


of sin, righteousness and judgement...

There you have it, He convicts of sin...

OK. What sin. Read the rest of the passage...

Of sin, because they believe not on me...

how about that. not of sin because they have done so many wicked deeds. It is the sin of unbelief that condemns, therefore that is the sin the Spirit convicts of...

John 16:8-10
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

 

Wow, very interesting rjprince.

 

The Word usually is. And the more we talk about it the more skilled we become, hopefully...

Acts 8:30-31
30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.


Heb 5:13
13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.


Those of us who are spending and have spent our lives studying the Word have a responsibility to handle it faithfully and to teach others as well...

 

http://www.biblebb.com/files/macqa/IA-repent.htm

I'm quoting John MacArthur a lot lately.
His saying something does not make it true. But he expresses really well what I am trying to say.
By an odd coincidence, he does not see this juxtaposition between turning and thinking that you do.
Maybe we don't agree as much as I stated earlier.

(I realize this can go off into the whole Lordship - Salvation debate usually associated with MacArthur. I would hold to the idea that Jesus IS the Lord of someone who becomes a Christian, but that you can be saved without knowing very much.
But yet faith has SOME content to it.

I became a Christian when I was 11, and Jesus Christ was my Lord then, but that does not mean I understood much at all then. Yet my trust was in Christ.)

Karen

 

MacArthur has probably influenced my more than any other man. I just got back from the Shepherd's Conference at Grace Church. Went to college and have reestablished contact with one of his key leaders there at Grace.

I say that to say this:

In Gospel According to Jesus, JM fails to take into account that Jesus preached differently than Paul did. When Jesus was preaching, the cross had not yet taken place. His gospel was a gospel of the kingdom and it was primarily directed to the Jews. The message of Peter at Pentecost was that Jesus is Lord and Christ as demonstrated by the reality of His resurrrection.

Salvation is accepting the free gift of salvation by grace through faith. I believe we are in agreement here. You cannot work to earn your salvation. Still in agreement? OK. Here is the clincher, do we have to promise to work for Jesus to get salvation? That is essentially the heart of Lordship Salvation.

For me, the clincher as far as Scripture is concerned, in addition to 150 that say it is by faith alone, is Rom 12:1-2. Paul begs them to give themselves fully to the Lord. If Lordship Salvation were true, he would have asked them to get saved for real. Since if Jesus was not Lord, then they really were not saved at all.

Salvation is when we come to Christ to accept His free gift of salvation. Surrender is when we give ourselves to him and submit to His Lordship over our lives. We do not come to Him offerring all that we are for all that He is. We have no worth, apart from who He is. That is why we need salvation. It is not a trade off. it is a free gift.

Here is what I have previously written re the Lordship issue:

“Lordship salvation” is the teaching that a person must accept Christ as Lord and Master of all areas of their life in order to receive salvation. Lordship salvation insists that a person who does not initially submit to the Lordship of Jesus has not made a personal commitment to the Lord and is therefore not converted. It is our position that while Scripture clearly calls upon believers to submit to the Lordship of Jesus Christ in their lives as a matter of personal surrender and full service to Him, unbelievers are incapable of understanding or making such a commitment. Their sole responsibility before God is to acknowledge their sinfulness and their total inability to approach God except on the basis of the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ and to trust His death as sufficient to provide eternal salvation. Paul’s exhortation to the believers in Rome that they present themselves as “living sacrifice(s)... not conformed to this world... but transformed by the renewing of (their) mind” (Rom 12:1-2) clearly indicates that these brethren had not yet fully submitted to the Lordship of Christ. Salvation is not a situation where we offer “all that we are for all that Christ is” or where we fully surrender our will to the will of Christ. Salvation is a free gift that is accepted by faith. We have nothing to offer God. God is not somehow completed by our surrender. God calls believers to submit to Him and to live a life that is pleasing to Him, but this is not a condition for salvation, it is a condition for discipleship and reasonable service.


Mima,

OK. Now we have the rest of the story! Why would his salvation be any less than that of the thief on the cross? The thief did not even use the right words. I change my vote! I agree that he is saved!

 

In order to do this 'repentance' or a changing of ones mind concerning the person of Jesus in their lives is necessary. Before I was saved Jesus was nothing more than a religious figure from history that I culturally "Believed" in/ I "Changed" my mind about Him and received him )Belief) thus as the audience on Pentecost, I repented, and saw Him as Lord and Savior. You cannot believe in a Jesus that is not Lord and believe on the biblical Jesus. I do believe however that your definition of Salvation above is dead on....we are saying very much the same thing...as I said earlier, we cannot judge if he was saved or not...sounds like to me he was....again FOLLOW UP and DISCIPLESHIP is the key

 

Yeah, i've been confused about this actually. You said that most people get offended that way, when people just come up to them and talk about their faith, that is how I see it also. However, I pass out gospel tracks with my church youthgroup, is this also a wrong approach? I read in a Charles Colson book, I believe it was Life Sentence, about how many negative affects this type of forced evangelizing has, but when I ignore the results and look to the Bible, it seems that the Bible is in favor of us witnessing boldy and often. I mean, look at the gospels and the great commision, I am sure that some people were 'offended' by the preaching that was taking place.

Im not sure if I should start witnessing to my friends, because I dont want it to have a negative affect, But I sure want them to experience God's love, please someone respond and tell me what I should do according to witnessing to my friends.

 

christianyouth,

Paul wrote that he was a 'walking testimony, known and read of all men.'

The best witness you can give your friends is to walk the talk. Preach Christ, and if necessary, use words.

 

christianyouth,

I know of very few people who have ever been offended by simply being handed a gospel tract. Ive met one who was, he declared to me that I was infringing on his privacy.......of course he had just walked by a bank ATM which took his picture without his permission and recorded it for strangers to review later. I had done nothing but hand him a piece of paper with Bible verses on it. Literally, nothing other than that. Where is the logic here? There is none, and so we have to realize that simply because a person is offended it does not necessarily mean that we did something OFFENSIVE. Do you see what I am saying?

Now, if you approach people in an offensive manner, that is different. And I would bet that most people who say they are offended by people handing out tracts were approached by someone who was being overly aggressive and/or offensive in their manner. Don't be chasing people down the street, don't yell at them if they reject the tract, don't roll your eyes and make faces if someone makes a rude remark at you (that last is the hardest for me.)

Personally, I believe it is a lie from the devil himself that "most people will be offended if you approach them as a stranger." I am NOT saying that those who repeat it are the devil....just that the lie is being placed within our minds by the devil. If God leads you to ask your waitress/waiter about God, than do it. (Let me add, if you do this, by ALL means leave a good tip!) They might not have time to really talk with you about it, but you can ask them to read the tract later. They might be able to take a break and talk with you right then. Ive seen it happen. And Ive never heard of a single waiter/waitress who was offended by someone leaving a tract with their tip, and even talking to them about it courteously.

People might laugh at you, yes, and they might even think we are peculiar, but why are we supposed to let that stop us from warning them? I simply do not believe that Jesus is going to take the excuse "well, that person never asked me about You" as valid.

As to your friends, you most certainly want to handle it carefully. They need to be approached specifically because they ARE your friends. They are the ones you have the first responsibility towards, IMO.

It will have a negative effect if you, first of all, have not been living right in front of them since you were saved. You can remedy that though, by starting to politely stand up for what's right, telling them WHY you cannot do those things (if there is anything).

It will have a negative effect if you are obnoxious about it. Your mannerism is what counts, here. You don't want to alienate them, but that very well may be the effect of the gospel, even when presented right. But again, that cannot stop you from trying to tell them.