Is this the only man that has been

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by percho, Sep 16, 2013.

  1. percho

    percho
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    For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 1 Corinthians 15:3
    Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. Romans 6:9
    And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David. Acts 13:34
    And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. Colossians 1:18

    Regenerated?

    Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. Acts 2:33

    Was he renewed by the Holy Spirit by being given the promise of the Holy Spirit?
     
  2. Van

    Van
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    As has been put forth many times, regenerated simply means to be originated anew. Synonyms include "made alive" "born from above" "born anew." When a person is "conceived in iniquity" they are "conceived" spiritually outside of Christ. When a person is spiritually placed "in Christ" they are "made alive (regenerated) together with Christ. After they are (1) in Christ and (2) regenerated, they are sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit.

    The idea of Acts 2:33 is that after Jesus ascended into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of the Father, He (Christ Jesus) received the authority to "pour out" the Holy Spirit upon those God placed spiritually "in Christ" and regenerated. Thus the indwelling of the Holy Spirit provides proof of being born anew, regenerated, made alive, but occurs after a person has been regenerated. Only those spiritually baptized into Christ are regenerated and then sealed with the Holy Spirit.
     
  3. Herald

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    Regeneration is the action of the Holy Spirit, who transforms the lives of those given the gift of faith so they experience a "new birth" and salvation through Jesus Christ. Being the "life giver" regeneration is something Jesus never experienced because He had no need for it. The reference to the Holy Spirit in Acts 2:33 is referring to the promise of the Holy Spirit being poured out on the Church (c.f. John 7:39).
     
  4. Winman

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    No, the word regenerated literally means to be made alive AGAIN, which refutes that men are born dead in sin.

    Luk 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

    Luk 15:32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

    Words have meaning, when Jesus said the prodigal son was alive AGAIN, he must have been alive BEFORE to be alive again. The prodigal son was not born separated from his father, but went out in sin willingly and knowingly when he was of age. It is after he went out in sin that his father said he was "dead" and "lost". These terms are never used to describe backsliders. A Christian is never said to be "dead".

    It is sin that causes spiritual death, when a person is forgiven their sins they are made "alive again".

    And scriptures clearly show the discples believed on Jesus for over 3 years before they received the Spirit.

    Jhn 2:11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.

    This was Jesus's first miracle, and his disciples believed on him, yet they did not receive the Spirit until after Jesus was raised from the dead.

    Jhn 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

    Men do not need to be regenerated to believe, they need to believe to be regenerated.

    Jhn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

    You teach the EXACT OPPOSITE of what scripture really says.
     
    #4 Winman, Sep 17, 2013
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  5. evangelist6589

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    Hogwash! The book of Romans clearly teaches that man are born and dead in their sins and cannot revive themselves. Its called the doctrine of total inability.
     
  6. percho

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    Is being given the gift of the Holy Spirit regeneration or the earnest of regeneration. The gospel ie death and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth, born of woman, brought life, (I believe that means eternal life here) and incorruptibility to light.

    Scripture teaches that the sin of Adam brought to all men, those born of the flesh, dying thou dost die. That is when death comes in/to the flesh you will be dead. Dead in trespass and sins. The wages of sin.

    Jesus Christ came in the flesh. To say he did not is Antichrist. Jesus was paid the wages of our sin for he had none of his own. He was as dead as Adam is dead. He was as dead as David is dead. He was dead as Ahab and Jezebel are dead. He died the death assigned for trespass and sins.

    His Father God, the one who begat him of woman, gave him life again from the death. Gal.1:1

    Christ died for our sins. If he could not die and need to be regenerated then our sins have not been paid.

    Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ. Acts 17:3

    The reason Adam was made of the flesh was for death, so that the Christ as of a lamb, could shed his blood, see death and destroy death and him who had the power of death that is the devil, through regeneration.

    Is this the truth of the word of God? If it isn't please show me why it is not the truth.

    A question for all?

    For how long was Jesus, the Son of God, dead, separated from God, his father, for our sins?
     
  7. percho

    percho
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    I agree we are born dead in trespass and sin. Adam through the one taken from him the woman of him succumbed as God knew he would for the purpose of God through Son, born of woman, to make man heir of all. Hebrews 1:2, 2:6-8 and then 9-13.

    Sons, brethren, children.
     
  8. percho

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    Another question for all.

    Was the above, if or if not you agree with above, predicated upon that Son, born of woman, being obedient unto death even the death of the cross, Phil 2:8 of that Son; resisting unto blood, striving against sin, Hebrews 12:4?
     
  9. Van

    Van
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    Funny that Jesus said to His disciples, "those who followed Me in the regeneration!" (Matthew 19:28) The well accepted view is Jesus died on the cross, and was regenerated or made alive.
     
  10. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    True, but the word paliggenesia, translated "regeneration" from the Greek, only appears twice in the New Testament, and it is in none of the passages you cite.

    The word for "alive again" here is anazao and literally means "live again."

    Where the word "regeneration" is used (Matthew 19:28, Titus 3:5) speaks of the regeneration of the spirit through the power of the Holy Spirit, but in so doing refers not to our own regeneration, but to a restoration of our soul and spirit as they were in Adam before the fall. We are indeed dead of spirit, and therefore born with a sin nature, because Adam's sin condemned all men until such time as that restoration takes place through salvic faith in Christ.

    True, and being born with Adam's nature means we are dead in spirit, not alive.

    They did not even fully know who He was before He was crucified. They could not believe on Him for saving grace without knowing Who He was.

    Yet again, even that miracle did not provide any "knowledge" that provided saving faith. That came only when they realized Who He was, after His crucifixion, death, and resurrection.

    They cannot believe without the presence of the Holy Spirit within them. They cannot open themselves up to Him unless He calls them to do so. They cannot even consider Who He is until He draws them near. Faith saves, absolutely true. But faith is not possible without the Holy Spirit.

    As I've just said, no he does not.
     
  11. Iconoclast

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    The promise spoken of here is the promise made from the Covenant Father to the Covenant Son....in psalm 16;
    8 I have set the Lord always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved.

    9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.

    10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

    here it is in acts 2;
    22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

    23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

    24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

    25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:

    26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:

    27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

    28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.

    29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this
    day.


    In salvation Jesus dies for the elect sheep in fulfillment of the Covenant redemption planned and purposed by the triune God....we partake in it by being adopted as sons.
     
  12. Winman

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    I agree, and you will never see the word regeneration used to teach that a man must be regenerated to have the ability to believe, this is a man-made doctrine. Show me where the scriptures ever say a man must be regenerated to have the ability to believe, you can't do it.

    Do you know what the word "again" means? If Jesus said the prodigal son was alive "again", that means he was alive "before". If we are born dead in sin as Original Sin teaches, then no man could be said to be alive "again", but this is exactly what Jesus Christ himself said twice. Jesus's words are so simple and plain that a child could easily understand. The only ones who do not understand are those whose minds have been deceived with false doctrine.


    I believe Mat 19:28 is speaking of the resurrection, when our physical bodies will be resurrected or made alive again.

    Titus 3:5 is speaking of when our sins are forgiven. This is when a man is quickened or regenerated spiritually. No man can be spiritually alive until his sins are forgiven, and no man is forgiven his sins until he first believes.

    Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

    Regeneration is when our sins are washed away, which only occurs after we believe, we are justified by faith.

    Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

    To be regenerated is to be quickened, which happens when all our trespasses are forgiven, which happens AFTER a man first believes.

    False, God says every man shall die for his own sin, and that the son shall not bear the iniquity of his father.

    Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

    You cannot show me any scripture that says men are born dead in Adam's sin, but I can show you scripture that says the son shall not bear the sin of his father.

    This is easily refuted, they knew the OT scriptures and knew of the promise of the Messiah or Christ.

    Jhn 1:41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.

    Jhn 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

    Jhn 1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.

    The disciples clearly knew and understood that the scriptures promised the Son of God would be born among men, and Nathanael declared Jesus to be the Christ the very first time he met him.

    Baloney, the scriptures say they "believed on him". Their knowledge was incomplete, but they believed God's promise and were therefore forgiven their sins. But they did not have the indwelling Holy Spirit which proves natural men have the ability to believe.

    This is question begging, this is the very issue up for debate. The scriptures clearly show hundreds, if not thousands of persons believed on Jesus before they received the Holy Spirit.

    Jhn 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

    This scripture is directly speaking of persons who "believed on him" but had not yet received the Holy Spirit. This verse utterly refutes the false doctrine of Total Inability.

    Anybody that teaches that regeneration precedes faith is teaching the exact opposite of scripture. I can show you a half dozen scriptures right now that ALL say a person must first believe to have spiritual life.

    Jhn 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
    15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
    16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    Jesus compared believing on him to when the children of Israel were bitten by fiery serpents in the wilderness. The serpents represent sin that causes death. Moses was instructed to put a brass serpent on a pole, this represents Jesus being made sin for us. Any man that was bitten, when he looked in faith to this brass serpent was healed and lived.

    Num 21:8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
    9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man,
    when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

    This passage refutes Calvinism in so many ways it is not funny. First, "any man" and "every man" could look in faith, which refutes Limited Atonement. Any man who was bitten when he looked in faith lived. Calvinism teaches that a man must be healed or made alive to have the ability to look in faith, scripture teaches the exact opposite, that any man who was bitten could look in faith, and if he did so was healed.

    Then Jesus directly says whosoever believes shall not perish "but have" (following or future tense) everlasting life. Scripture ALWAYS shows faith precedes regeneration.

    Scripture does not say men are born sinners.

    Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )

    Paul said Esau and Jacob had done no evil in their mother's womb. If Original Sin were true (it isn't) then they would have been guilty of Adam's sin, just as if they had participated in his sin themselves.

    Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

    Scripture says God has made man upright, which means without sin. The word "they" points right back to the word "man" and shows this is speaking of all men, not just Adam. Men are made upright, but all men when they mature go out and sin and spiritually die as the prodigal son did.

    Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

    In Romans 7 Paul descibes when he came to know what sin is, he said he would have not known lust except the law said "thou shalt not covet". Paul said he was spiritually alive until he learned the law. When he learned the law he was convicted as a sinner and spiritually died.

    I have showed you all this scripture that supports man is not born dead in sin, now you show me even one verse that says man is born dead in sin. You can't do it.
     
    #12 Winman, Sep 17, 2013
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  13. percho

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    Psalms 16 is the true mercies of David.
    And those true mercies were literally given to Jesus by God his Father by resurrection and quickening. John 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth

    Jesus the man child Son of God is also the covenant recipient, the heir, of the promise of God who cannot lie. The hope of eternal life.

    John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

    Because Jesus has inherited the promise of God and received the promise of the Holy Spirit, he Jesus can shed the Spirit of adoption on us, and we then become heirs, not yet inheritors, of the hope of eternal life.

    By the Father giving the Son to have life in himself, (eternal life) Jesus
    became, "the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen."
    Faith

    I will ask again was that predicated upon being obedient unto death even the death of the cross and resisting unto blood striving against sin?

    Is that not how Jesus became the author and finisher of the faith?
     
    #13 percho, Sep 17, 2013
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  14. percho

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    Acts 2:32,33 says the exact same thing as Titus 3:5,6
    God the Father raised Jesus from the dead regenerated him giving him, renewing of Holy Spirit. Then and only then the Holy Spirit can be shed, poured.

    Scripture says we have been washed from our sins in his own blood. Rev 1:5
    Yet 1 Cor. 15:17 states if Christ has not been raised from the dead, made alive again, regenerated, we are still in our sins.
    Also that verse says if Christ is not raised there is no faith. If Jesus has not received the promise of God there is no, substance of things hoped for, no evidence of things not seen.

    Is that correct or incorrect?

    I believe it is the washing of regeneration of Jesus, by which his blood washes away our sins. They neither remain on him nor on us.

    Washing of regeneration and renewing of Holy Spirit to Christ is how we shall be saved. Yes we also will drink of the cup he drink of and be baptized with the baptism he was baptized with.

    We have been given the earnest of the Spirit of that being so.
     
    #14 percho, Sep 17, 2013
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  15. HankD

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    The prodigal son is a parable taken from human experience.
    An experience that happens even today (MIA's coming home).
    Not good for building a theology on the rebirth of the Spirit.

    For the father of the prodigal son, he had developed the expectation that his son had probably died.

    Also in another vein, take the experience of Lazarus, Martha's brother, he died and was made alive again after several days.

    For Lazarus it was the real thing. Mortal death and then made alive again to mortal life.

    The "alive again" in both contexts has to do with mortal existence not of being born again of the Spirit.


    HankD
     

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