Is this to be taken literally??????

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Grasshopper, Apr 26, 2003.

  1. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper
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    Matthew 24:21

    21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

    Literal? and what do you think it means?

    P.S.there will be a follow-up question.
     
  2. Tim

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    Let me hazard a guess at your follow-up question, if v. 21 is literal, then are vs. 16-20 literal too?

    Am I right?

    Tim
     
  3. tyndale1946

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    What is was not since the beginning of the world to this time?... What is the this time in question?... Brother Glen [​IMG] & [​IMG] Sister Charlotte [​IMG]
     
  4. Grasshopper

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    Ezekiel 5:9 has almost identical language. That is the reason I question the literal interpretation.

    9 And I will do in thee that which I have not done, and whereunto I will not do any more the like, because of all thine abominations.
     
  5. Artimaeus

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    Literal, and it seems to mean exactly what it says. (and now I am waiting for the other shoe to drop.) :D
     
  6. Me2

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    no,..figurative....

    this is the moments of the defeat and destruction of our carnal spirit within that lives by external rules and sin offerings to a new and real personal relationship with a risen sacrifice, High Priest before God and soon to be declared lord over the power of death itself.

    a frightening moment in which all of Gods children come face to face with their Holy God.

    mat 24:31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    did anybody mention that this event would last thousands of years...and one believer at a time ?.

    this is not about the end of time..but about the end of each carnal spirits life that God chooses to judge before their owners actual physical death. and replacing it with a brand new resurrected spirit of Jesus. the day the believer actually comprehends that Jesus has been risen and declared lord over all powers under heaven.
     
  7. Dr. Bob

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    Means what it says. It's comin', folks.

    Next? [​IMG]
     
  8. blackbird

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    Make the Holocaust look like a Boy Scout picnic!

    Blackbird
     
  9. Caretaker

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    Zechariah 14:
    1: Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
    2: For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
    3: Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
    4: And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
    6: And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
    7: But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
    8: And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
    9: And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

    Matthew 24:
    21: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
    22: And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
    23: Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
    24: For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
    25: Behold, I have told you before.
    26: Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
    27: For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
    28: For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
    29: Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    30: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


    Revelation 19:
    11: And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
    12: His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
    13: And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
    14: And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
    15: And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
    17: And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
    18: That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
    19: And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
    20: And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
    21: And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.


    There going to be a new Sheriff in Dodge, and Praise the Lord we going to see the righteous reign of the Root of Jessie, the coming of the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, the Alpha and Omega, and every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

    Come Lord Jesus!!!


    A servant of Christ,
    Drew
     
  10. Primitive Baptist

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    Amen, Grasshopper.

    If one will read the whole discourse, then it will be evident that Jesus was speaking of a time of great tribulation that was to occur within the generation of His contemporaries (Matthew 24:34), and it was to be peculiar to the Jewish nation (Luke 21:20-13).
     
  11. rstrats

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    Dr. Bob Griffin,

    You have a question directed to you under the “When was Jesus Crucified” topic, dated 20 Apr 10:02 PM.
     
  12. DeafPosttrib

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    Matt 24:21 will be LITERAL EVENT! You have to read the context of Matt 24:15-22. The context is talking about warning of the coming future horrible persecutions upon the Christians. Future horrible persecutions in the Great Tribulation will be much worser than ALL any kinds of tribulations in the mankind history. It will be worser than Holocaust during World War II; worser than Spanish Inquistion, worser than many Christians were killed eaten by wild beasts in Colossuem during Early Church.


    Matt 24:21 will be much worser than ALL any kinds of tribulations in the past.

    Yes, it will be literal event.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  13. HankD

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    Literal? of course.

    But folks were bewildered and confused at His first coming versus their expectations. To us looking back it is all very clear.

    Similarly, we have problems putting it all together (I mean as His Church). This is evident by the myriad systems of eschatology and variations within each closed loop.

    The truth is we don't know all the details and sequence of events for sure (though some believe that they do) and we war amongst ourselves wanting to be heard.

    Matthew 24 hints at an individual false Christ arising from the plurality of false Christs (psuedochistoi)which will appear in the "secret chamber" (in Jerusalem?, Rome?, Damascus?, New York?)

    John calls them "many antichrists" (antichristoi) and "the antichrist" in the same breath (1 John 2:18).
    The definite article is used in 1 John 2:18
    "The antichrist" for the singular form.
    antichrist means the in-place-of Christ as well as against-Christ.

    And we don't know for sure what form the final antichrist religion will take before the "unveiling" or the "apocalypse", the mystery of iniquity to be revealed "in his time" , and it has been developing since John and Paul wrote their epistles.

    The whole world will be deceived by his "signs and lying wonders"

    Luke 12:32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

    HankD
     
  14. Grasshopper

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    Matt 24:21 will be LITERAL EVENT! You have to read the context of Matt 24:15-22. The context is talking about warning of the coming future horrible persecutions upon the Christians.

    Read the words of Jesus carefully, He is talking to the Disiples telling it is THEM who shall see these things.

    16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house.

    Why would one flee to the Mountains today? Roofs served as rooms in Jesus's day, not today. Yet these words fit perfectly the description of Jerusalem at that time. The works of Josephus show this clearly. This was warning christians of the destruction of Jerusalem that was coming shortly. Read chapter 23 before 24 and 25 to give yourself a better understanding of the text.
     
  15. HankD

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    The destruction of The Temple did indeed happen. But there is a definite dichotomy of events in Matthew 24-26, some local some unndeniably global.

    We don't know what will transpire by the end of the day much less tomorrow.
    Who knows what Jerusalem will look like when these things come to pass in the sunset of the last days.

    Will the Temple in Jerusalem be rebuilt?
    Will sacrificial Judaism be revived?
    It's possible.

    If that happens then the stage is set back to Matthew 24.

    Proverbs 27:1 Boast not thyself of to morrow; for thou knowest not what a day may bring forth.

    HankD
     
  16. Tim

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    Quoting HankD"The destruction of The Temple did indeed happen. But there is a definite dichotomy of events in Matthew 24-26, some local some unndeniably global."

    Undeniably global? Only if you pick and choose literal interpretation or not throughout the passage as Grasshopper is illustrating here.


    Quoting HankD "Who knows what Jerusalem will look like when these things come to pass in the sunset of the last days.
    Will the Temple in Jerusalem be rebuilt?
    Will sacrificial Judaism be revived?
    It's possible."

    God forbid! Those things became a stench in God's nostrils. That's why He had them destroyed. And if they are reinitiated, they will be completely hollow vestiges of a dead system. The "last days" of that system are long gone already.

    Quoting HankD "If that happens then the stage is set back to Matthew 24."

    I really don't understand this 'circle of history' idea that has us going back to the days of the Roman Empire in order to fulfill prophecies in the future that were already fulfilled in the past. It's so much more sensible to simply allow a little use of figurative language in prophecy here and there.

    Finally, those of us who put these prophecies into historical perspective don't boast about what we think will happen tomorrow--many in another camp are far more guilty on that count.

    Ain't eschatology great for a good debate?

    In Christ,

    Tim
     
  17. HankD

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    OK I would be interested in what your interpretation of the following if it is not literal. And if not, what is the non-literal fulfillment in history along with the dates and historic documentation such as when all the tribes of the earth mourned.

    I am looking forward to your exegesis.

    Matthew 24
    29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    HankD
     
  18. Primitive Baptist

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    For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. (Isaiah 13:10)

    Did that literally happen? Have you ever heard of imagery? Read the Psalms. They are full of it.
     
  19. HankD

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    Not yet.

    I hope none of my brethren are getting there hackles up [​IMG]

    This is just an exercise in logic, exegesis , etc...

    HankD
     
  20. Grasshopper

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    HankD I was where you are now just a few months ago. One thing I learned in this study is you better know the Old Testament. The OT is full of the same language used in the prophetic verses in the NT, especially Revelation. Once you see how these verses were used in the OT, they make much more sense in the NT. I recommend the book "Last Days Madness" by Gary DeMarr. It has helped me alot. Good Luck to all who dive into this.
     

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