Isaiah 9:3 wording differences...

Discussion in 'Bible Versions/Translations' started by robycop3, May 16, 2008.

  1. robycop3

    robycop3
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    Isaiah 9:3, KJV..."Thou hast multiplied the nation, and not increased the joy : they joy before thee according to the joy in harvest, and as men rejoice when they divide the spoil.

    Same verse, NKJV...You have multiplied the nation
    And increased its joy;
    They rejoice before You
    According to the joy of harvest,
    As men rejoice when they divide the spoil.

    Most newer versions read as the NKJV does, & it appears the context of the resta the verse, and the surrounding verses indicate that when this prophecy did come to pass, that God did indeed increase their joy, as the prophecy is about Jesus' ministry.

    So, what about it, O Hebrew experts? Did the older Bible versions, including the KJV, make a booboo? Or, did they use a text which reads "NOT increased"?
     
  2. Deacon

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    A couple of things to note:

    1. I'm no Hebrew expert, only a student, a novice at that.

    2. In the Hebrew BHS text the verses are numbered differently, Isaiah 9:3 being numbered 9:2.

    3. The text is particularly difficult.

    The Masoretic text reads: lo’ which generally means "no" or "not".
    As given the text doesn’t really make sense in context; at best its meaning is obscure.

    The BHS Hebrew text notes a proposed correction to the Masoretic text from " lo' " [meaning "not"] to " loh " [meaning "its"]

    Both sound similar

    There is a similar type of difficulty found in Job 13:15

    Though He slay me,
    I will hope in Him.
    Nevertheless I will argue my ways before Him.

    Job 13:15 NASB95

    God might kill me, but I have no other hope.
    I am going to argue my case with him.

    Job 13:15 NLT

    Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him:
    But I will maintain mine own ways before him.

    Job 13:15 AV 1873

    Rob
     
  3. Deacon

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    The original Hebrew text was written without vowels.

    Only later in the process were the vowels added.

    Dots and other small symbols were added above and below the inspired Hebrew letters.

    These vowel points were added in such a way as not to change the positioning of the consonants.

    The difference between the two readings in the text of Isaiah is made make without making any changes to consonantal text.

    Rob
     
  4. Jerome

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    Matt. 5:18
    For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
     
  5. Salamander

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    Seems two opposing armies are spoken of here, Roby, and not that the verse deals only with Israel, but Assyria too.

    Here is a view to help understand what exactly is being reported here:

    Verse 3: You have multiplied the nation, [Assyria increased its borders with cruel bloodshed] and not increased the joy: [those conquered had extreme anguish] they joy before you [your own troops] like the joy in harvest, and as men rejoice when they divide the spoil. [because they have won so much.]

    Assyria increased while Israel was conquered.

    The "you" in the first part of the verse unmistakingly represents the Lord multiplying Israel's oppressors, as the context deals with the prophecy of Israle under the Assyrian captivity.

    The second "you" are the armies of Israel in utter defeat as the Assyrian armies celebrate their victory over Israel. They would be the ones spoken of that their joy was NOT increased.

    The KJB has it right and the translators of the NKJV have altered the text to make it "fit" into the intellectual understanding as ooposed to the poetic graces we find in Hebrew.

    Thank you for the opportunity to point this out how the modern versions translators [Bible attack deleted].
     
    #5 Salamander, May 17, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: May 17, 2008
  6. Deacon

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    Heh, Aleph-ta to correct myself.
    There is more than a vowel point change.
    An Aleph in the MT was changed to a heh.

    1. Was Jesus being literal or using hyperbole?

    2. Isaiah is not law.

    3. When were the books of the OT completed?
    Where they complete upon first being written?
    ...or were they completed upon their last edit?
    [the last edition would include the vowel points]

    4. What scroll of the OT isn't missing a jot or tittle?

    Rob
     
    #6 Deacon, May 17, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: May 17, 2008
  7. Logos1560

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    Christian Ginsburg wrote: "In Isaiah 9:2 [9:2 in Masoretic text but numbered 9:3 in KJV], as the text now stands one hemistich contradicts the other, inasmuch as it says:
    'Thou hast multiplied the nation,
    Thou hast not increased the joy,
    They joy before Thee according to the joy ...'

    The official Keri, which substitutes the relative pronoun, to him, for the negative, not, and which the Revised Version follows, is evidently due to a desire to remove this contradiction at the sacrifice of the idiom which requires that it should follow and not precede the verb. All difficulty, however, disappears and the rhythm of the passages is restored when we bear in mind that the original orthography was _____________ which was
    wrongly divided into two words and the mater lectionis Vau was introduced to mark this reading" (Introduction to the Massoretico-Critical Edition of the Hebrew Bible, p. 161).

    The KJV translators put the marginal note in the Masoretic Text in a marginal note in the 1611 ["or, to him"]. Sometimes the KJV translators would put the Keri marginal note correction in the text, but at this verse they didn't.

    By the way, the section heading for the first seven verses of Isaiah 9 in the 1611 KJV was "What joy shall be in the midst of afflictions, by the kingdom and birth of Christ."
     
  8. robycop3

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    Thanx, Logos.

    Sorry, Sal; wrong again. There's NO MENTION of Assyria in those first verses. And Assyria didn't have the GREAT LIGHT that shined upon the land of the valley of the shadow of death...the same one David knew of, I assume. it appears you're just making another silly-looking stretch, trying to somehow support KJVO. BBUUZZ!
     
  9. robycop3

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    Logos, the KJVOs here are not hung up on the "Pure Cambridge Edition" codwallop advocated by Matthew Voorhees & Co. I hope you find time to post more of your excellent research concerning Isaiah 9:3 here, especially your work on the Tercentenary Oxford KJV Edition of 1911.
     
  10. Logos1560

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    Yes, the Tercentenary Oxford KJV edition of 1911 is said to adopt the Keri correction at Isaiah 9:3 and remove the "not."


    This revised edition of the KJV [the 1911 Tercentenary Commemoration Edition issued by Oxford University Press in New York] is often overlooked by most KJV-only advocates although Laurence Vance does mention it. The following was stated on its title page: "The text carefully corrected and amended by American scholars." KJV-only author Laurence Vance acknowledged that "this revision of the Authorized Version introduced moderate corrections and improvements to the text" (Brief History of English Bible Translations, p. 65). F. F. Bruce pointed out that in this edition "the text of the A. V. was reproduced with light corrections and improvements" (History of the Bible in English, p. 166). Philip Mauro claimed that its editors accepted less than two percent of the changes introduced by the revisers of 1881 (Fuller, True or False, p. 106). That means that its changes may have numbered at least in the hundreds (likely in the 500-700 range).

    According to Bruce, one of its improved revisions was the removal of the word "not" before the words "increased the joy" in Isaiah 9:3 (History, p. 166).

    I recall reading where one source claimed that C. I. Scofield was one of the editors or men that worked on this 1911 edition. So far, I have not found evidence that affirms or refutes that claim. Does anyone know of a source that lists the men who worked on this 1911 edition?
     
  11. Salamander

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    I see you don't know your Bible very well.

    The place I gave you the info from uses the NKJV, fyi.

    The chapter is dealing with the prophecy of the Assyrian captivity. But some can't see past the end of their nose.
     
    #11 Salamander, May 19, 2008
    Last edited: May 19, 2008
  12. Salamander

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  13. robycop3

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    With due respect, Sal, you're just babbling. And I don't care WHAT BV your source is using...it's WRONG. It takes no rocket science at all to see the first 7 verses of Isaiah 9 are speaking of JESUS. then, it turns to the subject of God's anger against Israel & Judah, plainly showing the Syrians & Philistines as His instruments of punishment, as well as touching upon the civil wars between Israel & Judah.

    Yes, we know that the ten northern tribes of Israel were carried off by the Assyrians, but Isaiah 9 does NOT mention this. You may rattle on from whatever "sources" you wish, if it makes your day for you, but I will believe the ACTUAL SCRIPTURES over any commentary any day! If YOU wishta add something to these Scriptures that isn't in them, go ahead, but don't expect anyone to believe you if they actually READ THE SCRIPTURE.
     
  14. Jerome

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    "It is, however, a severe revision of the AV text." --Catalogue of English Bible Translations, p. 36.

    "This text stands outside the main line of the text . . . it sometimes changes the text substantially" --David Norton, Textual History of the English Bible, p. 364.
     
  15. Salamander

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    Duh!

    The analogy is correct to show that Israel was NOT increased in the joy of carnal things.

    Just like I said, you do not know your Bible very well and no matter how LOUD you scream, the passage does deal with Israel and the prophecy concerning the Assyrian captivity as well as the Messiah.

    The rreason for God's punishment upon Israel is for their idolatry and desire for the carnal things which cannot satisfy. God wants to be the center of attention and have no other gods before Him.

    The mewntion of Israel's joy NOT being increased makes a direct reference to the Assyrian captivity and YOU cannot see it because YOU are just like others who THINK the Bible should be CORRECTED to FIT your way of THINKING, or the lack thereof!

    The PROBLEM occurs when you MONKEY with the word of God!

    You cannot see something due to the length of your NOSE!:laugh:

    Sorry, Roby, Salamanders don't have a rattle, you must have me confused with one of your relatives or something.
    The PROBLEM you HAVE is YOU don't UNDERSTAND the use of VOWEL points and the way which the word of God is meant to read!:tonofbricks:
     
  16. Deacon

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    Here are a couple more instances where the Qere (marginal) reading was used in the Authorized Version for the same word mentioned in the OP.
    I've bolded the word that reads "not" in the Hebrew text (Kethiv).

    If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her.
    Exodus 21:8 AV 1873

    Talk no more so exceeding proudly;
    Let not arrogancy come out of your mouth:
    For the LORD is a God of knowledge,
    And by him actions are weighed.

    1 Samuel 2:3 AV 1873

    And Hushai said unto Absalom, Nay; but whom the LORD, and this people, and all the men of Israel, choose, his will I be, and with him will I abide.
    2 Samuel 16:18 AV 1873

    Know ye that the LORD he is God:
    It is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves;
    We are his people, and the sheep of his pasture.

    Psalm 100:3 AV 1873

    then they came to Zerubbabel, and to the chief of the fathers, and said unto them, Let us build with you: for we seek your God, as ye do; and we do sacrifice unto him since the days of Esar-haddon king of Assur, which brought us up hither.
    Ezra 4:2 AV 1873

    In all their affliction he was afflicted,
    And the angel of his presence saved them:
    In his love and in his pity he redeemed them;
    And he bare them, and carried them all the days of old.

    Isaiah 63:9 AV 1873

    Rob
     
  17. Jerome

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    Of course, there were also changes made in the 1911 Bible that differ from the RV's changes.
     
  18. Jerome

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    Scofield (Worldcat)
    Scofield, Gross Alexander, Collins Denny, Doremus Hayes, A. T. Robertson (Who's Who)
     
  19. robycop3

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    Salamander:Duh!

    The analogy is correct to show that Israel was NOT increased in the joy of carnal things.


    But the context is just the opposite in the first 7 verses.

    Just like I said, you do not know your Bible very well and no matter how LOUD you scream, the passage does deal with Israel and the prophecy concerning the Assyrian captivity as well as the Messiah.

    No, it DOESN'T. It's simply NOT THERE. The Assyrian conquest is prophesied in Chapter 8, and includes their conquest of Syria as well. But Ch.9 does NOT go that far. It begins with a prophecy of God's breaking the power of Israel's oppressor, as He did with Midian. It stops with the Israeli civil wars, which were BEFORE any Assyrian invasions. No matter how many times you say it, you cannot find the Assyrian invasion in Chapter 9.

    The rreason for God's punishment upon Israel is for their idolatry and desire for the carnal things which cannot satisfy. God wants to be the center of attention and have no other gods before Him.

    For once, you have something correct.

    The mewntion of Israel's joy NOT being increased makes a direct reference to the Assyrian captivity and YOU cannot see it because YOU are just like others who THINK the Bible should be CORRECTED to FIT your way of THINKING, or the lack thereof!

    Wrong. The reason I don't see it there is because IT ISN'T THERE, except in your imagination.

    The PROBLEM occurs when you MONKEY with the word of God!

    No, the prob occurs when someone like you tries to add something into a given set of Scriptures which ISN'T THERE, to try to cover some anomaly in a given verse. This reminds me of those who tryta justify "Easter" in Acts 12:4 by referring to the "days of unleavened bread" in V3, & claiming Passover was done, when, in fact, passover was the whole week long. (Eze. 45:21)

    How can you be so silly as to tell us that breaking the yoke of Israel's oppressor(Isaiah 9:4) did NOT increase her joy??????


    You cannot see something due to the length of your NOSE!:laugh:

    This nose can sure smell a RAT who pretends to be an amphibian here. So we all see that, in typical KJVO fashion, you resort to ad-hominem when you've plainly been shown WRONG. We all see your true color...more NEWT than salamander.

    Sorry, Roby, Salamanders don't have a rattle, you must have me confused with one of your relatives or something.

    No, but they have long tongues, often live in mud or goo, aren't known for intelligence, and many are poisonous to the touch. and they do manage to make noise upon occasion. And they use muscles in the PELVIC REGION to reel in their tongues & hyoid bones.

    The PROBLEM you HAVE is YOU don't UNDERSTAND the use of VOWEL points and the way which the word of God is meant to read!:tonofbricks:

    It has nothingta do with vowel points. It has to do with what is actually in a given Scripture. And there's simply NOTHING about the Assyrian invasion in Isaiah 9. If you wanna go on telling us that God did NOT increase Israel's joy by breaking the yoke of her oppressor, AND by giving them the ministry of JESUS later on, then go right on. But don't be surprised if no one believes you. You keep telling me I don't know scripture very well, but I know enough to not ADD to it, nor make an off-base private interpretation thereof, which some people here apparently DON'T know.
     
  20. Salamander

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    The context jumps around in the first couple of verses.

    This passage deals withn the prophecy concerning the Assyrian captivity and the coming of the Messiah.

    The word of God does this occasionally to allow the reader to know each statement and where it applies.

    The attempt to reconcile certain statements and passages by men to make it "fit" their intellect is MONKEYING with the word of God.

    When Assyria was multiplied to bring Israel into captivity it was for their desires to have carnal things which could never bring the kind of joy the Lord can only give by serving Him.

    It's time you learn precepts according to the word and quit trying to delegate authority to the intellectuals who are constantly altering the Bible to fit their reasonings.

    IOW, roby........... yadda,yadda,yadda.
     

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