Isaiah 9:6 and oneness/praxeanism/modalism

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by robycop3, Feb 15, 2010.

  1. robycop3

    robycop3
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    Isaiah 9:6, KJV: For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

    This verse is one of the "proof verses" that the oneness folx use to justify their false doctrine. However, I believe that this phrase is to indicate that JESUS would be His Father's representative on earth for all things, and not that He is His own Father. There are many other verses that show Jesus and His Father are separate individuals.

    Other readers, what are YOUR thoughts on this verse?
     
  2. pinoybaptist

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    I confess I do not fully understand why that Scripture says what it says, robycop, and would like to know what others understand it to be, PROVIDED they let Scripture do the explaining.
    I'm not interested in what they think, or what the Scriptures seem to be saying to them, but what saith the Scripture ?
     
  3. robycop3

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    1.) At Jesus' baptism, JESUS was physically present, of course. The HOLY SPIRIT appeared, separate from Jesus, in the form of a dove. And a VOICE FROM HEAVEN boomed, "This is My beloved SON..." while both JESUS and the HOLY SPIRIT were physically present, separate from each other.

    2.) JESUS PRAYED. When He prayed, it was to HIS FATHER. Was He just putting on a show? Not hardly!

    3.) Jesus said, "MY FATHER is greater than I." How could one Personage be greater than Himself?
    The other day, I posted a few Scriptures from the KJV against the blasphemous, apostate heresy called modalism/ sabellianism/ oneness, which says that God is but one Personage who manifests Himself in the "modes" of Father, Son, or Holy Spirit as the occasion demands. However, Scripture makes it plain that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are each a separate, distinct Personage, while being parts of the one Godhead.

    The modalists' problem is that they try to compare GOD with MAN. They just cannot see how THREE PERSONAGES can be ONE GOD, even though it's made plain in Scripture. When Jesus said "I and My Father are one" in John 10:30, this is what He meant, as He later prayed, "Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: ... {John 17:20-22) We see that He meant that HE AND HIS FATHER WERE IN PERFECT HARMONY in their wills and intent, NOT that they were ONE SINGLE PERSONAGE.

    But let us look for more Scripture proving modalism false. In Psalm 110:1, David wrote, by the HOLY SPIRIT..."
    The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.


    I have heard the absurd argument that this reading is a result of some opinionated translation of some obscure Hebrew. Yeah, RRIIGGHHTTT! Those folx are correct, and hundreds of translators are wrong!

    BUUZZZ!

    Every valid English version I've ever seen reads pretty well the same! Moreover, we have the words of JESUS, recorded into precise Greek, translated into English for us: "For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.

    Now, was GOD THE FATHER talking to Himself? Not hardly!

    And in Genesis 1:26 we read,"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:.."

    Again, was God talking to Himself?

    And in John 14:16, JESUS says: "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;"

    And who is this Comforter? Jesus tells us:"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."(John 14:26) Jesus mentions Him further in John 15:26 & John 16:7. And from these passages we see that the Comforter, who is the Holy Spirit, is a Personage, as JESUS calls Him "he" in John 14:16. And He is NOT God The Father, who sends the Comforter in Jesus' name.(All Scriptures are from the KJV, as, while I am most certainly NOT KJVO, many of the praxeans are, and I wanna show'em wrong by their own fave version.)

    And in Revelation 4 John sees the throne of God in heaven, and in Rev, 5 he sees Jesus as the Lamb of God take the scroll from His Father's right hand. They are certainly separate Personages!

    Now, I'm not at all saying Isaiah 9:6 is incorrect, but that certain people's UNDERSTANDING of it is wrong. My belief in the HOLY TRINITY is based fully upon SCRIPTURE. But what I wanna know here is you other readers' take on Isaiah 9:6's phrase "the everlasting Father".
     
    #3 robycop3, Feb 15, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 15, 2010
  4. Marcia

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    I just read something on this the other day, it means Jesus is the Father of everlasting life. It does not mean he is God the Father.

    The NET Bible has this footnote on it:
     
  5. Aaron

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    Good post, Marcia.
     
  6. Marcia

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    Thanks, Aaron! :wavey:
     
  7. Allan

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    wrong thread :laugh:
     

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