ISLAM: The Koran Supports The Killing Of Christians

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by ChristAlone, Oct 13, 2001.

  1. ChristAlone

    ChristAlone
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    I keep hearing about how peaceful Islam is and I do feel for the peaceful Muslims in the US, but history does testify that early Islam was a bloody religion built on military conquest.

    Under jihad, Islam conquered Palestine, Syria, Mesopotamia, and Egypt. Constantinople survived two sieges, one in the 670s and another in 717-718.

    The point I am trying to make is that history testifies that Islam began through Jihad's to subject most of the Middle East into it's camp and a failed attempt to subject Europe. The idea that Islam basically is a peaceful religion is false.
     
  2. ChuckS

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    I have heard this about the history os Islam, and do not question weather the history is true or not, but I do have this to ask, has no one ever shed blood in the "name" of Christ? Does this mean we are a violent or bloody faith?

    You mentioned Constantinople, I wonder who attacked who and why.
     
  3. HankD

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    The Crusades.
    The Grand Inquisition.

    Not Christianity's finest hour.

    We might say that true Christians would never get involved in these sorts of atrocities, but that is just what peace loving Moslems are saying, that in spite of their blemished history, they are not a violent people.

    HankD
     
  4. Ernie Brazee

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  5. Daniel Davidson

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    Since the title of this thread suggest that it is about the Koran, I thought I would say something about the Koran. And here it is:

    The Koran does provide divine direction for killing the enemies of Islam.

    I'm surprised that nobody has gone to an online, searchable Koran and posted those verses. It only took me about a minute or so to find them.

    Hank, what is the Grand Inquisition? I know about the Inquisisiton and I know that 'The Grand Inquisitor' is a chapter in Dostoevsky's _The Brothers Karamazov_ (it's well worth the readd), but never heard of the Grand Inquisition. Are you thinking of the fictional story?

    It might be well to remember that the Inquisitors, and presumably at least some of the Crusaders, were aware that the Koran fosters the sort of murderous fanaticism we see in the Middle East today. Before you judge them too harshly, consider some of the threads posted on BB.com by "true Christians." Mabye it's time to reconsider the whole issue and approach Crusaders and Inquisitors as men with great knowledge and foresight instead of just bunch of hateful ignoramuses. Do you think the world would be a better place had they succeeded in stomping out Islam?
     
  6. Pennsylvania Jim

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  7. HankD

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    &gt;&gt;Hank, what is the Grand Inquisition? I know about the Inquisisiton and I know that 'The Grand Inquisitor' is a chapter in Dostoevsky's _The Brothers Karamazov_ (it's well worth the readd), but never heard of the Grand Inquisition. Are you thinking of the fictional story?&gt;&gt;

    You are correct, its not an official name but the name "that grand Inquisition" that Pope Sixtus the 4th gave to the Spanish Inquisition (as opposed to the Roman Inquisition) under its Grand Inquisitor Torquemada who initiated a reign of terror against the Jews, Muslims and later Protestants in Spain.

    The Roman Inquisition was the institution that slaughtered the so called "separatists" such as the Waldenses. Atrocities were sanctioned and committed against these and other people by the Roman Catholic Church.

    http://www.reformed.org/books/fox/DOCS/fox105.html

    One of the most horrible slaughters was the Saint Bartholomew Day massacre.

    http://www.reformation.org/bart.html

    The Crusades were a series of campaigns (slaughters) to free the Holy Land from the Muslim "Infidels". Jews were also massacred along the way.


    http://www.medievalcrusades.com/

    [ October 15, 2001: Message edited by: HankD ]
     
  8. DHK

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  9. Chris Temple

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    Excellent article Jim. thanks.
     
  10. Ars

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HankD:
    The Crusades.
    The Grand Inquisition.

    Not Christianity's finest hour.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Ah, but these were perpetrated by the Catholic Church in the name of Christianity, not by Christians themselves. Many Christians died at the hands of the inquisition. Not just Jews and Muslims.
     
  11. Ars

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Daniel Davidson:
    Since the title of this thread suggest that it is about the Koran, I thought I would say something about the Koran. And here it is:

    The Koran does provide divine direction for killing the enemies of Islam.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    And here it is:
    The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;
    Al-Maeda (The Table, The Table Spread):33
     
  12. HankD

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    &gt;&gt;Ah, but these were perpetrated by the Catholic Church in the name of Christianity, not by Christians themselves.Many Christians died at the hands of the inquisition. Not just Jews and Muslims.&gt;&gt;

    Yes we covered this under the "Sedition" thread of this forum.

    Actually the Crusades happened before the Reformation and the vast majority of "Christians" both wheat and tares were under the roof of the "Catholic-Orthodox" Churches.
    In addition the Inquisition was a work-in-process project concurrent with the Inquisition.
    Even then, many true Christians were within the fold of the RC and Orthodox churches.

    Most modern Muslims and indeed the unregenerate world make little or no distinction between us.
    We (born-again) are smeared by them with the same bloody historical brush as the RCC.
    This is the point not whether the RCC is the best representative of Christianity.
    When it comes to the world's perception of bloody religions, Christianity is probably second to none.

    HankD

    [ October 17, 2001: Message edited by: HankD ]
     
  13. DocCas

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HankD:
    &gt;&gt;Ah, but these were perpetrated by the Catholic Church in the name of Christianity, not by Christians themselves.Many Christians died at the hands of the inquisition. Not just Jews and Muslims.&gt;&gt;

    Actually the Crusades happened before the Reformation and the vast majority of "Christians" both wheat and tares were under the roof of the "Catholic-Orthodox" Churches.
    In addition the Inquisition was a work-in-process project concurrent with the Inquisition.
    Even then, many true Christians were within the fold of the RC and Orthodox churches.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I am not sure where you are getting your information, but the Crusades and the Iquisition were very different things. The most famous and first of the grand inquisitors was the Dominican Tomás de Torquemada, who has become the symbol of the inquisitor who uses torture and confiscation to terrorize his victims.

    With the appearance of large-scale dissenters in the 11th and 12th centuries--notably among the Cathari and Waldenses -- Pope Gregory IX in 1231 instituted the papal Inquisition for the apprehension and trial of these "heretics."
     
  14. kiwimac

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    [​IMG] Actually,

    Most of the verses in the Quran which relate to <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>fighting with Christians & Jews <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>refer to groups which the nascent Muslim community was having trouble with NOT with ALL christians or jews & certainly not for ALL time.

    Kiwimac
     
  15. HankD

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    Dear brother Cassidy,

    If you read the entire thread and the "sedition" thread you will see that I agree with you on all points.

    I don't know to what you are objecting.
    I mentioned the "Separatists' who preceded the Reformation and were in the minority of "Christianity".
    I did a little blurb on Torquemada (who himself was born a Jew) and gave dates.
    I cleary made a distinction between the Inquisition and the Crusades.
    I posted URLs of historical abstracts concerning both.

    HankD

    [ October 19, 2001: Message edited by: HankD ]
     
  16. John Wells

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>In nearly every discussion about Islam we're told that Islam is, among other things, a "tolerant" religion.

    Is Islam really a tolerant faith? According to some historians, the historical record is far from clear on this score.

    One example of Islam's tolerance that is often cited is the treatment of Jews and Christians living in Islamic societies. We are told that Jews and Christians were freer to practice their faith in places like
    medieval Baghdad and Southern Spain than Jews were in Christian Europe.

    Now there's no denying Christians weren't as tolerant as they should have been. But this characterization of Islam's treatment of Jews and Christians, is, according to historian Bat Ye'or, "a radical distortion
    of what happened." In her book "The Decline of Eastern Christianity Under Islam," the Egyptian- born Ye'or says that Islam's regard for its Christian subjects could best be described as one of contempt.

    How could be it otherwise? As she reminds us, Islam's spread was the product of a "military conquest," not peaceable conversions. The degree of massacre, enslavement, and other brutality exceeded any thing being done in Christian Europe.

    For those Christians who survived the initial conquest, life wasn't that much better. There were pockets of relatively good treatment. But on the whole, "tolerance" is hardly the word to describe the treatment. Hundreds of thousands of Christians and Jews were traded as slaves; they were required to wear distinctive clothing; and they were denied the protection of Islamic law.

    And the closer we get to our time, the worse things seem to get. In 1916, 1.5 million Christian Armenians died at the hands of their Turkish Muslim rulers. Many more went into exile in Western Europe and America.

    No less lethal is the treatment Sudanese Christians have received from the Islamic government since that government tried to impose Islamic law, or Shari'a, on them. At least 2 million have died, and thousands
    have been sold into slavery.

    Another place where Muslims are trying to impose their faith on their Christian neighbors is Northern Nigeria. There, three northern states, all of whom have a sizable Christian population, have followed Sudan's
    example and adopted Shari'a, the Muslim law.

    If you're looking for a place where Christians are doing the same thing to Muslims, you won't find one. In fact, the last time a non-Christian society volunteered to convert en masse -- Japan after World War II -- we opted to send Bibles and missionaries to encourage spiritual rather than cultural conversions.

    What accounts for the difference? Historian Richard Connerney recently wrote that in Islam, "the themes of religion, politics, and law are inseparable . . ." According to Connerney, conquest and jihad are woven
    into the fiber of the religion. Thus, belligerence towards people of other faiths and cultures is, arguably, inherent to Islam.

    In contrast, while Christians have mistreated non- Christians, a fair examination of Christian history and doctrine shows this conduct is in violation of Christian beliefs, not in their furtherance.

    I'm not saying Christians should regard Islam or Muslims as their enemy. We should respect and love Muslims in our midst. But we should insist on an accurate telling of the story. To do otherwise would be to fail to learn from history. And, we know what happens to those who do that.

    For further reading: Richard D. Connerny, "Islam: Religion of the Sword?," Salon Magazine.

    Bat Ye'or, The Decline of Eastern Christianity Under Islam: From Jihad to Dhimmitude, Seventh-Twelfth Century. Trans Miriam Kochan and David Littman (Fairleigh Dickinson Univ Press, 1996).

    Copyright 2001 Prison Fellowship Ministries. All Rights
    Reserved.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
     
  17. Chris Temple

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    Speak about Islam clearly & without fear, Mohler says
    By Michael Foust


    LOUISVILLE, Ky. (BP)--Extremists may kill innocent people in the name of Allah, but that is not the ultimate danger of the Islamic faith, says R. Albert Mohler Jr.

    The biggest danger, Mohler says, is that Islam presents a false gospel, a false god and a false salvation.

    Mohler, president of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, spoke about
    Islam, Judaism and the Christian faith during a chapel message titled
    "Theology Matters" Oct. 17 on the Louisville, Ky., campus. The message
    was part of Heritage Week, which is held each fall to celebrate the nearly 150 years of Christian education at the school.

    Preaching from Isaiah 44, Mohler noted that in recent days theologians, media members and the general public have been debating whether Islam itself is to be blamed for the attacks of Sept. 11. Mohler, though, said Christians should be focused on a different issue -- the eternal consequences of the Muslim faith.

    "I'm no specialist in Islamic theology," he said. "I'll let those who are debate whether or not there is that kind of militancy and warrior culture within Islamic theology. But I want to say as a Christian theologian, the biggest problem with Islamic theology is that it kills the soul.

    "The bigger problem with Islam is not that there are those who will kill the body in its name, but that it lies about God [and] presents a false gospel, an un-gospel," Mohler said, acknowledging, "These are
    difficult things to say. This is not polite."

    If the God of the Bible is to be believed, Mohler argued, then Christians have no choice but to speak the truth about other religions, including Islam and Judaism. Mohler pointed to Matthew 10:28, where
    Jesus said, "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Mohler also quoted John 14:9, where Jesus said, "He who has
    seen me has seen the Father."

    "It is often said -- in fact it is now routinely claimed -- that Muslims worship the same God as the Jews and the Christians," Mohler said.

    But, Mohler said, Christians do not serve the same God as that of Jews and Muslims, for the Jews have rejected Christ and the Muslims have replaced the God of the Bible with Allah.

    "That's a very difficult statement," he said. "We believe that there is one God who has revealed himself in the Old Testament and the New Testament. We must be very clear that to reject Jesus Christ is to reject the Father. [That] is so politically incorrect. It breaks all the rules of American etiquette. ... But if the Christian church will not be clear about the Christian gospel, who will?"

    The Christian God, Mohler said, is the only God, and he is known savingly through Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ alone.

    "On what authority would we possibly say such impolite things?" Mohler asked. "There is only one authority, and that is the authority of God's inerrant and infallible Word. ... There is no arrogance in this, for it is not ours. We are saved by the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ. We live to his glory, we testify of his gospel and we live under the authority of his Word."

    Mohler told the chapel audience the Christian church must be unequivocal about its beliefs. While spiritual matters have been discussed openly since Sept. 11, much of it reflects religious pluralism, which holds that all religions are equal and all paths lead to the same god.

    "Theology's back on the front pages," he said. "It's back in the headlines. It's back in the news. It's back on the street. Like the four horsemen of the apocalypse, theology came riding on four airliners
    filled with human beings, filled with hate and filled with fuel."

    Mohler noted that the terrorists based their acts on a theological interpretation of Islam.

    "The terrorists did not crash those planes and kill thousands in the name of modern secularism, after all," he said. "They were not prophets of postmodern deconstructionism. They committed those acts in the name of Allah."

    For years, Mohler said, secularists have argued that the more humans discovered about the world, the less the world would need God.

    "According to the worldview of the secularist, theology will have less
    and less meaning," he said. "The secular world has been at least partially awakened to a fact, and that fact is that theology matters."

    When theology is being discussed, it is imperative that the Christian church speak with clarity, Mohler said.

    "The Christian church had better think very clearly about this," he said. "For too long liberal theologians have treated theology like an abstract art, with merely symbolic value. 'Make your doctrines pretty
    and palatable,' they argue, 'so that they may be readily accepted by the world.'"

    However, Mohler noted, on the other extreme, Christians base "their Christianity upon experience without any doctrinal foundation or doctrinal substance. They are looking constantly for a new experience to reinforce their faith and to give them a spiritual thrill."

    The prophet Isaiah, Mohler told the audience, knew that theology mattered. Mohler read from Isaiah 44, where the Old Testament prophet poked fun at an idolater's actions. The idolater took half of one tree
    and made fuel for a fire - with which he baked bread - then took the other half of the same tree and made an idol for worship.

    "The prophet Isaiah simply minces no words," Mohler said. "The passage is dripping with obvious sarcasm. Isaiah looks at the idolaters, and is amazed that they cannot see what they are doing for what it is - a
    massive exercise in self delusion."

    Much like the days of Isaiah, today's world presents many idols, but there is only one God, Mohler said.

    "There is a fundamental choice that must be made and will be made between the God of the Bible - the one true and living God - and the idols of this age," Mohler said. "But if God is God, if the gospel is the gospel and if this is God's Word, we have no choice."
    --30--
    This message can be heard on the seminary's web page at http://www.sbts.edu/news/audio/chapelfall2001.html.
     
  18. mountainrun

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    I don't believe that the Moslem religion is a religion of peace at all.
    http://www.ishwar.com/holy_quran/

    Sura 9:5
    But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

    9:29
    Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

    {"People of the Book" refers to Christians and Jews.}

    4:74
    Let those fight in the cause of Allah Who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fighteth in the cause of Allah,- whether he is slain or gets victory - Soon shall We give him a reward of great (value).


    4:75
    And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)?- Men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will protect; and raise for us from thee one who will help!"


    4:76
    Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who reject Faith Fight in the cause of Evil: So fight ye against the friends of Satan: feeble indeed is the cunning of Satan.


    Their suicide bombers are taught in the Moslem religious schools.

    The fact that the Catholic Church organized and ordered the Crusades and Inquisitions had
    nothing whatsoever to do with Christianity. Even if it did, it does not justify another Holy War by another religion, does it?

    MR
     
  19. Jimmy

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    bible-truth.org has some good articals on this subject.web page
     

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