It is Finished

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Salty, Apr 20, 2014.

  1. Salty

    Salty
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    Yes, Christ said "it is finished", at the crucification, but would our salvation have been secured without the Resurrection?
     
  2. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    Of what use would be a dead Savior? His promise of eternal life in exchange for belief is meaningless if He is not immune to death Himself. If He is not a God who has power over life and death, He is not a God worthy of our faith, nor of our worship.

    Ours is the only "religion" that speaks of such power. Ours is the only faith whose Founder rises above death itself, and further promises that we, as His followers, will also.

    Without the resurrection, there would be nothing or no one deserving of our faith.
     
  3. JamesL

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    Was salvation secured at the cross, or was the resurrection required?

    That depends on what you mean by "salvation"

    and it depends on whether you're speaking of the inner man or the outer man.
     
  4. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    The Bible speaks only of the salvation of the soul from condemnation, Though there are references to temporal salvation from disaster, they are examples meant to illustrate the need for eternal salvation.
    Care to explain?
     
  5. JonC

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    Only in certain theological circles. The resurrection is the basis of our faith and is essential to Christianity.
     
  6. percho

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    And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 1 Cor 15:17,18
     
  7. JonC

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    :thumbs::thumbs:
     
  8. salzer mtn

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    If God had not been pleased with the atonement there would not have been a resurrection, but God said, this is my beloved son , in whom I am well pleased. Christ said, I do always those things that please him, so your question is just a what if meaningless question.
     
  9. percho

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    And if Christ be not raised, your faith vain; ye are yet in your sins. 1 Cor 15:17

    If that be, the truth and believe me it is, the truth, then let me ask concerning this verse.

    And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, Rev 1:5

    What caused/allowed his blood to wash away our sins?
     
  10. salzer mtn

    salzer mtn
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    Christ was perfect, without sin, he knew no sin, there was no guile found in him, Christ met all the requirements. No human before Christ or after Christ could die for another and take away there sin, because of the human imperfection.
     
  11. percho

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    From the above verses, wasn't it through the regeneration of Jesus that our sins were washed away in his shed blood?

    Washing of regeneration through the shed blood (death) of Jesus saved us by the taking away of our sins?

    Doesn't regeneration mean to make that which is dead, alive and by the so doing to Jesus, our sins were taken away?
     
  12. percho

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    This is a great answer for it states exactly why I say faith isn't something we believe and or react through.

    As Galatians 3:23,25 state: Before the faith (the belief) came and after the faith (the belief) did come.

    The faith, was the belief of God the Father in the obedient shed blood of Jesus the Son of God. Because of this belief in the Son, God the Father before placed the Son as a propitiation (a place of mercy). Rom 3:25

    Before, being before the foundation of the world.

    Before the foundation of the world God determined his Son would shed his blood and therefore also before the foundation of the world made the promise of the hope of eternal life.

    The faith (the belief) was fulfilled (came) in three days and three nights when the Son shed his blood (died for our sins) and was given life again by his Father from the dead, regenerated and thus became the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen.
     
  13. OldRegular

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    On the Cross Jesus Christ accomplished all that was necessary for the Salvation of the Elect.

    God speaking through the Apostle Paul said:1st Corinthians 2:2. For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

    Yet God speaking through the Apostle Paul also tells us:

    1st Corinthians 15:12-19
    12. Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
    13. But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
    14. And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
    15. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
    16. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
    17. And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
    18. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
    19. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.


    So how do we reconcile these two statements? God does it for us. Speaking through the Apostle Paul He tells us:

    Romans 1:1-4
    1. Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
    2. (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
    3. Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
    4. And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:


    Jesus Christ, in prophecy and in history, was the first and only one to rise from the dead to die no more. I believe that there are at least four reasons why the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ is essential in God’s purpose to save the elect.

    1. The bodily resurrection is necessary to fulfill Old Testament prophecy and the promises of Jesus Christ.

    2. The bodily resurrection is proof that Jesus Christ conquered death.

    3. The bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ is the guarantee of our bodily resurrection.

    4. The bodily resurrection proves that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, that His death on the cross was indeed redemptive.

    Jesus Christ accomplished all that was necessary for our Salvation on the Cross. In John 17:4 He tells us: I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. However, without the resurrection the cross is just another tragedy in a world full of tragedies and we are still in our sins and are of all people most miserable and deluded. But the resurrection of Jesus Christ is a fact and one great and glorious day He will return to claim His Bride, the Church, the redeemed of all time.
     
  14. percho

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    OR your thoughts concerning the following.

    Jesus Christ was without sin of his own yet was made sin for us. The sin of us all was laid on him. The Lamb of God which takes away the sin (singular) of the world.

    and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.' Gen 2:17 YLT
    for the wages of the sin is death, from Rom 6:23 YLT

    Is that death spoken of in those verses the death Christ died as the ransom for our sins? Was it this death that was the separation from God his Father that was the ransom for our sins through his blood? See following.

    For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. Lev 17:11 literally the soul or the living of the soul, is in the blood. That is the reason the atonement (ransom) is by blood.

    Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed (ransomed) with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot 1 Peter 1:18,19


    Was the life (soul) of Jesus in his blood?

    For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, 1 Peter 3:18

    Adam. Because of sin, dying thou dost die, Will be separated from ME. Death will come to in the flesh. The day you ate, you were dead in trespass and sin.
    Dying you will die.

    Therefore, just how long was Jesus, dead, separated from God his Father?

    Would Jesus still be dead today, separated from his Father, had not the Father raised him from the dead? John 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth.

    Did the Father raise Jesus the Son from the dead with his life (soul) of his flesh in the blood?

    John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

    Is this a different kind of life to the flesh, incorruptible.

    As you stated, "Jesus Christ, in prophecy and in history, was the first and only one to rise from the dead to die no more." I might add also no more to return to corruption. Acts 13:34

    And that is the meaning of being, the beginning, the first born from the dead of Cor 1:18

    That is the born again we must be born with to enter the kingdom of God.

    It is when we are born as he was that he will then be the first born of many brethren.

    Acts 20:25 And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.
    ! Cor 15:1-3 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

    He delivered that first of all because that is how one is born into the kingdom of God the gospel of God first preached by Jesus the Christ.
     
  15. OldRegular

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    percho

    There is only one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Therefore, there was never and could not be any separation between the Divine nature of Jesus Christ and God the Father.

    It was the human nature of Jesus Christ that died on the Cross. This is shown by the passage you quote: For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, 1 Peter 3:18

    God cannot die so the Divine nature of Jesus Christ did not die, could not die.

    Scripture speaking of Jesus Christ as the firstborn from the dead is speaking of the resurrection of His body. His bodily resurrection is the guarantee of our bodily resurrection as the Apostle Paul teaches in 1 Corinthians 15.

    May I add that you make an important point to my remarks regarding the resurrection of Jesus Christ by referencing the following Scripture: Acts 13:34. And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David. There are Scripture showing restoration of life to other dead. However, they were not raised with an incorruptible body as was Jesus Christ and as Paul teaches in 1 Corinthians 15, but died again, buried in corruption, but the true believers to be raised the last day with incorruptible bodies, fashioned like unto his glorious body. Philippians 3:21
     
  16. percho

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    in this know ye the Spirit of God; every spirit that doth confess Jesus Christ in the flesh having come, of God it is, and every spirit that doth not confess Jesus Christ in the flesh having come, of God it is not; 1 John 4:2,3 YLT
    This one is he who did come through water and blood -- Jesus the Christ, not in the water only, but in the water and the blood; and the Spirit it is that is testifying, because the Spirit is the truth, 1 John 5:7 YLT

    Who is that in embolden? Is he embolden the following also embolden?
    In many parts, and many ways, God of old having spoken to the fathers in the prophets, in these last days did speak to us in a Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He did make the ages; Hebrews 1:1,2 YLT

    Heir of all things?

    And this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood the reign of God is not able to inherit, nor doth the corruption inherit the incorruption; lo, I tell you a secret; we indeed shall not all sleep, and we all shall be changed; 1 Cor 15:50,51 YLT

    From your post, "May I add that you make an important point to my remarks regarding the resurrection of Jesus Christ by referencing the following Scripture: Acts 13:34. And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David. There are Scripture showing restoration of life to other dead. However, they were not raised with an incorruptible body as was Jesus Christ and as Paul teaches in 1 Corinthians 15," I ask; Did Jesus the Son of God need to be changed?

    Jesus is the firstborn from the dead, Col 1:18 by your own account incorruptible. Firstborn, the firstfruit and to date the only fruit incorruptible, therefore who in verse 45 of the following is being described in verse 46?

    And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 1 Cor 15:45,46 KJV

    Isn't verse 46 describing the last Adam in verse 45 and isn't the last Adam, thou shall call his name Jesus?

    It brings to mind this thread, "How human was Jesus/how much like Jesus are we,"

    Is Jesus, the Son of God, the heir of God the Father or not?

    For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. Gal 3:18 The promises was made to Abraham yet Abraham died not having received the promises because they were to come to him through whom? V16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. The Son also of God. V19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

    Did that seed also die? Yet, was not it to him. the heir, that the promise was made? What did that promise pertain to> V21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

    When did the seed receive the promises, the heir of all things? A name more excellent than the angels, incorruptibility?

    Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? Hebrews 1:4,5
    God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David. Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Acts 13:33-35

    How human was Jesus/how much like Jesus are we? Or shall we be?

    And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me in the regeneration, when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory

    I moved the comer.
     
  17. OnlyaSinner

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    Was salvation secured at the cross, or was the resurrection required?

    I'd answer this question, "Yes!" There's a reason that I Cor 15:3-4 (noted in an earlier post) includes "death", "burial", and "resurrection", and twice notes "according to the scriptures". Paul has recorded there one of the oldest confessions of the early NT church.

    Christ's sacrifice on Calvary paid the penalty for our sins. His resurrection conquered death and guaranteed believers' resurrection to eternity in heaven. The Gospel is both events; no Biblical need to parse which one is more necessary or more important.
     

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