It is well with Horatio G. Spafford's pre-wrath/posttrib soul

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by npetreley, Sep 10, 2003.

  1. npetreley

    npetreley
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    I always chuckle when a pre-trib church includes the hymn "It is well with my soul" in the service. Horatio G. Spafford (1873) wrote the words. Here's an interesting excerpt:

    He says that his faith will be sight when the clouds are rolled back as a scroll, the trump resounds, and the Lord descends. In other words, he doesn't actually see the Lord until He returns in this way.

    Spafford is quoting Revelation and Matthew...

    And when does the sky recede like a scroll?

     
  2. Doubting Thomas

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    Excellent point, npetreley!
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  3. Grasshopper

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    Of course we know not to take that literal:

    Speaking of Judgement on Edom:

    Is. 34:4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll; and all their host shall fade away, as the leaf fadeth from off the vine, and as a fading leaf from the fig-tree.
    5 For my sword hath drunk its fill in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Edom , and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.

    Speaking of Nineveh:

    Nahum 1

    1 The burden of Nineveh .
    5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt ; and the earth is upheaved at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.

    And Judgement on Babylon:

    Isaiah 13

    1 The burden of Babylon , which Isaiah the son of Amoz did see.
    10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light ; the sun shall be darkened in its going forth, and the moon shall not cause its light to shine.
     
  4. Trotter

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    Since when is a song the basis for theology?

    In Christ.
    Trotter
     
  5. Ed Edwards

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    Sure beats comics
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  6. npetreley

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    Wow, that was a very skillful display of quoting out of context.

    It is not judgement on Edom, but the world:

    Yes, God singles out Edom as an example, but only after having described it as judgement on the whole world.

    And what is this time period called? Say it with me...

    Your Nineveh quote is just silly, since it talks about one isolated similarity, and does not include all the signs of the Day of the Lord. But I really like your Isaiah quote...

    Along with verse 9, this is an excellent quote in support of the pre-wrath rapture, because it illustrates that the Day of the Lord is about wrath, not tribulation. And if you view the context trailing your quote, you can see this is not about the city of Babylon, but about the spirit of Babylon, which is upon the whole world. (Emphasis mine)

    Thanks - your quotes are a good start in a study of why the Day of the Lord is a time of wrath against the nations, which is not the same thing as great tribulation for Israel (time of Jacob's trouble). Indeed, it is a year of recompense for the cause of Zion, which is an illustration of avenging Israel, not tribulation against Israel.

    [ September 11, 2003, 10:09 AM: Message edited by: npetreley ]
     
  7. Grasshopper

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    Wow, that was a very skillful display of quoting out of context.

    I find that laughable considering what you just did. The chapter starts talking about Babylon, in the middle (vs. 17) it tells us who God uses to destroy Babylon, and at the end it tell us what will be left of Babylon. Yet somehow you manage to find the end of the world in there. Amazing

    17 Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, who shall not regard silver, and as for gold, they shall not delight in it.
    18 And their bows shall dash the young men in pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye shall not spare children.
    19 And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms , the beauty of the Chaldeans' pride, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.
    20 It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall shepherds make their flocks to lie down there.
    21 But wild beasts of the desert shall lie there; and their houses shall be full of doleful creatures; and ostriches shall dwell there, and wild goats shall dance there.
    22 And wolves shall cry in their castles, and jackals in the pleasant palaces: and her time is near to come, and her days shall not be prolonged .

    Now preach to me about context.

    It is not judgement on Edom, but the world:

    5"For My sword shall be bathed in heaven;Indeed it shall come down on Edom,

    Speaks for itself, And by the way, are we also to take this literal?


    And the mountains shall be melted with their blood

    Thats a lot of very hot blood isn't it?


    Wooooo, look at the words in this Psalms. It must surley be future.

    Psalm 18

    For the Chief Musician. A Psalm of David the servant of Jehovah, who spake unto Jehovah the words of this song in the day that Jehovah delivered him from the hand of all his enemies, and from the hand of Saul : and he said,

    I love thee, O Jehovah, my strength.
    2 Jehovah is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; My God, my rock, in whom I will take refuge; My shield, and the horn of my salvation, my high tower.
    3 I will call upon Jehovah, who is worthy to be praised: So shall I be saved from mine enemies.
    4 The cords of death compassed me, And the floods of ungodliness made me afraid.
    5 The cords of Sheol were round about me; The snares of death came upon me.
    6 In my distress I called upon Jehovah, And cried unto my God: He heard my voice out of his temple, And my cry before him came into his ears.
    7 Then the earth shook and trembled ; The foundations also of the mountains quaked And were shaken , because he was wroth.
    8 There went up a smoke out of his nostrils , And fire out of his mouth devoured: Coals were kindled by it.
    9 He bowed the heavens also, and came down; And thick darkness was under his feet.
    10 And he rode upon a cherub , and did fly; Yea, he soared upon the wings of the wind .
    11 He made darkness his hiding-place, his pavilion round about him, Darkness of waters, thick clouds of the skies.
    12 At the brightness before him his thick clouds passed, Hailstones and coals of fire.
    13 Jehovah also thundered in the heavens, And the Most High uttered his voice, Hailstones and coals of fire.

    Your Nineveh quote is just silly, since it talks about one isolated similarity, and does not include all the signs of the Day of the Lord.


    Of course you dismiss it, it doesn't fit your view. You cannot understand prophecy and the especially Revelation unless you understand apocalytic language. If you take it all literal you have a screwed up system. Get inside the mind of a 1st century, eastern culture Jew, not in a 2003 western culture gentile. They understood the language for what it was. Why don't you give us a running commentary on Revelation using your literal approach.
     
  8. Trotter

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    Amen, Grasshopper! I take a literal view of the Bible, unless it is obviously using figurative language (as in prophecy). But by taking a figurative passage and trying to wring the literal out of it, you've got a real mess.

    But, then, if all someone is trying to do is fight an arguement, anything that would argue in their favor becomes fair game...

    In Christ,
    Trotter
     
  9. npetreley

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    I'd be glad to. Let's look at Isaiah 13 again.

    First, you can be certain this section refers to the Day of the Lord because the signs are the same (sun will be darkened, moon will not give light - in other places it turns the color of blood), and because it comes right out and says "the day of the LORD comes" and "In the wrath of the LORD of hosts and in the day of His fierce anger". You can't undo those verses with references to Babylon.

    Does that mean the surrounding verses don't refer to a real Babylon? I don't know - maybe they do. But it must be a future Babylon, if so.

    Babylon is still inhabited.

    I dismiss it because the Ninevah quote is a general one about God's wrath, and His ability to exprss it. It does not specifically refer to the Day of the Lord for a number of reasons. It lacks specific signs that are clearly associated with the Day of the Lord, and nowhere does it actually reference the Day of the Lord or any of the variants of that title (Day of the Lord's wrath, day of vengance, etc.) It simply says, to paraphrase, "The Lord will take revenge on His enemies, and He has awesome power to do it."

    I would if I thought Revelation was to be taken entirely literally. But I don't. However, I not only have the ability to see parallel references to the Day of the Lord (both by name and by the signs), I can also read. That is, I can see when a verse says "the world" and when a verse says "Babylon", and I can tell the difference between the two.
     
  10. Frogman

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    Hey Npetreley,

    Good to see ya.

    Bro. Dallas
     
  11. npetreley

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    Heya Froggy Dallas! Great to see you, too! I've got great news, but I'll PM you with it.
     

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