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It Was 40 Years Ago Today... Sgt. Pepper

Discussion in 'Political Debate & Discussion' started by Botfield, Jun 1, 2007.

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  1. Rufus_1611

    Rufus_1611 New Member

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    "They" would be any band that is occultic. What are the traits of an occultic band? Would they follow after occult leaders? Would they blaspheme God? Would they sing about Eastern Mysticism? Would they flash the Il Cornuto? If the Beatles being occultic is a stretch, which bands would not be a stretch to consider occultic?
     
  2. Joe

    Joe New Member

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    I absolutely agree. :thumbs: Now I recall those lyrics
     
  3. Joe

    Joe New Member

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    I now feel the Beatles were dabbling in the occult at one point or they wouldn't have agreed to sing the song "Imagine"
    Consider me doing a 360 so I won't answer you Rufus. I think we agree

    If that's not occultic, I don't know what is.
     
    #43 Joe, Jun 1, 2007
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  4. Baptist Believer

    Baptist Believer Well-Known Member
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    The links to the source material for your assertions seem to be bad. Furthermore, I'm very skeptical of those quotes. In the past I've researched quite a bit of the quotes that "Christians" like to use in their anti-rock publications, and I've found that many of them are invented, misquotes, or ripped completely out of context to create the worst possible meaning. Furthermore, the Paul McCartney and and least one other Beatle (I think Ringo Starr) have explained that the cutout figures pictured on the album cover represent famous and infamous people, as well as friends and heros. Certainly, there are SOME people pictured there who are heroes, but that does not mean that they are ALL heroes of the Beatles. And the very brief nature of the Ringo quote and the way Paul McCartney is quoted saying that they "intended" to have a wall of photos showing their heroes, seems to indicate that they changed their original plan.

    Furthermore, Crowley was not exactly a household name in the United States, but he was known in the United Kingdom.

    What are "good Christians" doing reading Playboy? Are they reading for the articles? "Do what you want as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else" is such a common view of morality and individualism that is scarcely merits quoting as something scandelous about the Beatles. That faulty moral code drives most free Western societies.
     
  5. Rufus_1611

    Rufus_1611 New Member

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    Here are the repaired links (the hyperlink button picked up the close parens apparently)...


    These are secular sources as I understand it. If you have evidence to suggest they are inaccurate please let me know which quotes you believe to be, and we can research the alleged inaccuracies. As to the ripped out of context, what context would be acceptable to say:

    What Christians are you alleging to be looking at Playboy? David Sheff is an interviewer and an author of books on this topic and others, I am not aware of his Christian testimony. Your question might better be asked, why are Christians listening to music from artists that would do interviews for Playboy magazine?

    "Do what thou wilt" is a doctrine of Aleister Crowley. It is common now because his disciples have spread his message quite effectively, through multiple means.
     
    #45 Rufus_1611, Jun 1, 2007
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  6. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>

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    Wow, Joe!!! :applause:
     
  7. justsomedude

    justsomedude New Member

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    "In 1967, the Beatles made their now-famous link-up with a then-unknown guru, Maharishi Yogi and his occult-sounding product, Transcendental Meditation. In the same year Paul McCartney and John Lennon wrote "I am the Walrus" which opened with the pantheistic declaration: "I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together." "Instant Karma" followed in 1970, and the next year saw the release of George Harrison's "My Sweet Lord" with its alternating chorus of "Hallelujah" and "Hare Krishna."......"

    Also.. check out who this guru is...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maharishi_Mahesh_Yogi

    So, to me, they are or were at some point occultists. If not, they are Hindu....which to me.......is occultism.
     
  8. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
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    Christians keep making so much of the statements "no heaven, no hell, no religion", but put yourself int he shoes of a nonbeliever, who sees this life as "it". Do you like the idea of your loved ones departing and going to Heaven? You may try to be happy for them, but it is still painful, in the meantime. And is anyone even supposed to want a Hell? That's certainly nothing to desire.
    As far as religion; don't we often in our preaching say that "Christianity is not a religion, but a relationship", and that "religion does not save"? Yet when we hear that line, we suddenly forget all this in our knee-jerk defensiveness.

    What we instead should do is use the points raised in the song to point to the Gospel, the only hope of seeing the utopian visions the song longs for. In the Kingdom of God, people will no longer die and go to any Hell or Heaven, and there won't be any religion either (Rev.21:22) Let alone, no war, greed, fighting and killing, and instead universal peace. Precisely what the song is asking for.
    Our job is to tell them how to reach that kingdom. But instead, as much as we criticize "them" for self-centeredness and being spoiled brats, we instead get locked into a "culture war" with them as the enemies trying to take America or western Civilization away from us, and even have often condoned or defended war, fighting and killing, greed (in arguments for capitalism), religion, and often seem to be gleeful that people will "get theirs" in Hell.
    No wonder Lennon and the rest of that subculture looked to socialistic ideals, other religions and philosophies, sex and drugs —anything but Jesus. The people preaching Jesus were apart of the problem (and thus Jesus was associated with the problem, instead of being seen as the solution to it), and we continue to be as long as we just defend the "good ole days" (as in the discussion in the Baptist-only thread "take Back America") and act like there was no real sin in the past (or in answer to Ralph III's last post, that today's sin is "worse" than yesterday's, as if there is some sort of grade curve with God or something).

    Also from that thread:
    There's a point there, and Lennon and the Beatles and rest of the hippies certainly were the center of this. Still, it is not as simple as "they were just having all this fun without a care in the world, just for the heck of it", as we often seem to think. They were miserable, and trying to ease their pain and confusion through all the drugs and sex. It's true their parents tried to give them everything, but on the other side, it is also true that their parents often didn't give them love either, and then many did try to give them "discipleship" and "scriptural roots", but it was often just head knowledge that was not even lived up to. They did all that and and then turned around and twisted those scriptures to justify oppressing other people because of race, and then finally began sending their own children —these very kids of this generation you are talking about— off to horrible wars, that appeared to only be for what else but selfish material/political interests (only on a national level, instead of personal). So is it any wonder those kids would grow up confused and rebel like that?
    This is the context "Imagine" should be understood in.
     
    #48 Eric B, Jun 1, 2007
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  9. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>

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    Eric, it is secular humanism at it's best, no matter how you try to slice it and dice it or defend it. Period.

    Yes, let's imagine there is really no heaven or hell and let's live only for the moment and pretend there is no eternity. Let's just all live for today. Let's be the captain of our own ship, let's be like gods, or better yet, let's be God.

    This song has a spirit of rebellion against God - the very same spirit of rebellion against God, present since the Garden of Eden, present since the tower of Babel, present through all of civilization - I will be God and in charge of my own destiny through my own human efforts since there is "above us only sky." (no God exists) "Living for today" is just another paraphrase of the ancient saying, eat, drink, and be merry for tomorrow you may die." Same spirit, different song. Still rebellion and carefully crafted lyrics to decieve people and lead them astray.

    Being anti-Bible, anti-God, is not the same as being anti-religion.

    I have no desire to join them and live as one with them.

    And yes, I'm glod my dad and my sister are in heaven. Miss them, sure, but grateful and glad they are with the Lord.

    Well, John Lennon knows there is God now, that's for sure.
     
  10. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
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    I never said that it wasn't (and I meant to clarify that more). It is misguided hope. They don't know the Way. We are supposed to. It seems many of our predecessors in the Church didn't know it either, because they had their own human agenda. The difference was, they cloaked it with "God" under the banner of "Christianity", in order to control others. That was what the rebellion was against, and unfortunately, they threw out God instead of separating Him from the faulty messengers.
    That's all they know. We as the Church were/are supposed to teach them. But instead, all we did in the past was try to control them, as if we were the captain of the ship. The so-called "Christian society" acted as if it was god. Just look at the way they tried to justify racism by saying that certain people were only 3/5th human. If that wasn't in the Bible, then they were playing God. So why is it only wrong when the younger generation plays God? They too acted like there was only today. Segregate those people over here; send our children over there to kill those Commies; so WE can be supreme! Where was the hope for Heaven in all that? That certainly was the spirit of Babel, and so is much of some people's zeal to "take back" nations now. Again; it's this "do as I say; not as I do" control mentality.
    God was often basically the mascot, used to justify domination ("God 'chose' us to take over the heathen and gave their lands to us". "Heaven" was often a tool used to try to pacify the subjects. It worked for a while, but eventually, there was a backlash against it. Now, we're just angry that we can't control anyone anymore with God, so we lash out at them as enemies, but REFUSE to ever look at the issue from anything but the perspective of the supposed righteousness and power we think we once had and someone took from us.
    They don't know the difference. We are being angry at them for not knowing the Bible as much as we do, but after all, they are "the world", so why should we be so critical of them for being the world, and not being like Christians. Their sin and unbelief is against God, not us or our society. Again, if we dont realize this, then we are making ourselves god just as much as they are! And who should know better?! It's like Michael Horton put it "It's as if we have simply adopted the pagans as our children, demanding that they follow our rule of life..." Is this what the Biblical doctrine of sin teaches? The closest thing you can find in it is the Old Testament nation of Israel, where the divine Law was the civil law. But is that the New Testament GOSPEL pattern? No, and as Horton continues: "...while in fact they are not our children, but rather unconvinced and unconverted neighbors who are not persuaded that Christianity carries a binding authority to command their lifestyles." (Beyond the Culture Wars, p.28)
    But they are not the ones who made any distinction between "them" and "us". That is your or our "us versus them" mentality. He said "the World may live as one". Isn't that what will happen in God's kingdom? Again, the issue is the WAY to acheive that. They don't know, but we are supposed to. But it seems we don't either, because our entire mindset is this whole good-guy/ bad-guy "us versus them" culture war.

    Do you notice that in every discussion on these types of issues here, your whole argument is basically our (Christians and traditional American/Western culture) goodness versus "their" (everyone else's) badness? You need to look at this. It is antithetical to the Christian message. Again, how can we get angry at the world for believing godless worldly philosophy and self-exaltation, when we believe the same thing, and are basically in a rat race (i.e. "culture war") with them for power?

    Wouldn't you rather be with them? Once in the Kingdom, are they still going to be separated from you in some higher heaven or something? Of course not. That is what that means, primarily. It is lamenting the corruptible state of the world; just as the Bible acknowledges. The difference, and where they are wrong, is that they think that "religion" as they call it, is not a solution, and only apart of the problem. And it often has been. So of course, the only other alternative to them is self-deification and utopian schemes. Again, we should know better, but we ourselves fall into the same trap.

    Does that make you happy? Again, people in the world will see this, and where's the love at? God sure is "fixing" him for daring to rebel agains our beliefs and way of life". (As if we are the ones he sinned against).
    I think it is quite sad. Lennon basicaly is little different than some tribesman in the bush who never heard of Christ. He may have seen a lot of organized cultural "religion"; but much of it was not the Gospel. That says alot about US, more than it does him. So let us keep going on reveling in our own righteounsness and how the non-Christian world falls short. Let's see what God will have to say to us when we get there.

    http://members.aol.com/etb700/rightwing.html
     
    #50 Eric B, Jun 2, 2007
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  11. justsomedude

    justsomedude New Member

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    As much as they were lost/are lost.......there is also an agenda.

    Unfortunately we can not change what the Beatles did and have done. But the music world is where the Satanic Gospel is spread in mass. It is Satan's "soul winning" and it's very effective.

    People familiar with Aliester Crowley that still support him are chosing an agenda. Crowley knew the truth. His statements are very clear that he believed what the Bible says, he deliberately chose the other side. That is no less an agenda than that of Anton LeVay and the church of Satan......who dressed up Satanism by saying it wasn't really a worship of Satan, but instead a "do what you want" philosophy. At the same time Levay practiced about every occultic rite commonly associated with conjuring power from Satan and demons. Many of the more serious Satanist believe that they can invoke Satan to give them worldly fame, power, and riches in exchange for their allegiance. They like to present a different veiw to the world than they do to the inside. That was the philosophy of Crowley as well. For the tip of the iceburg on this topic watch this link.

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8666333078601179952

    The point really is this, whether or not they really believed what Crowley taught..........wheteher or not they really believed in Eastern Mysticism and Gurus.............whether or not they really had a hidden agenda to bring about a new system of thought,........it is what their music preaches and is just as much corrupt as reading the Satanic Bible knowing what it contains and then justifying it.
     
    #51 justsomedude, Jun 2, 2007
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  12. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>

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    Good post, justsomedude.

    And, Eric, I just am not understanding your rant against Christianity or the reason for it on this thread and why you are defending John Lennon/Beatles. They definitely had an agenda in their carefully crafted lyrics and if you can't see that, then there is nothing anyone here can say to change your mind.

    It seems you just want to rant and condemn Christians (and in particular, me) for taking issue with the lyrics of the Beatles - at least that's how your posts appear to me, Brother.

    Why are you bringing racism into this thread?

    It is not antithetical to the Christian message. The Christian message is the Gospel of Jesus Christ and Jesus, Himself, said we are not of the world, we are to come out from among the world and be separate. We are not to blur the lines. There is a distinction, or there should be. If you have an issue with that, take it up with the Lord.

    Who's angry? Speak for yourself. I don't believe in a godless worldly philosophy and self-exaltation and am in no rat race with them for any power. So are you speaking for yourself or someone you know?

    If you believe the Beatles were not promoting an agenda, and were just victims of cruel, hypocritical Christians, (which is what I'm getting from your posts), then nothing anyone here says will make a bit of difference to change your mind.


    No one on this thread is reveling in any self righteousness and the non-Christian world does fall short. Romans 3:23.

    Christians are supposed to be the salt and light in the world. Being the salt and light means standing for truth and pointing out the agenda of the world/satan whenever possible, especially in things that affect society as a whole. To be salt and light in the world means you do not make excuses or justify behavior or defend that which is anti-God. And the world is reading some of that in your posts. Hey, there are probably lots of Christians who are Beatles fans. I used to be one, too, back in my youth.


    The post by justsomedude pretty well sums it up....

    AMEN!!!:thumbs:
     
    #52 LadyEagle, Jun 2, 2007
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  13. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
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    I'm not defending John Lennon or the Beatles, and it's not Biblical "Christianity" I'm ranting against, but rather cultural Christianity (the religion of much of "traditional" America and the West), and we often fail to note the difference betwenn the two. Just because eveyone looked moral on the suurface, and gave outward reverence towards God, we thought it was all purely Christian until the Beatles and others of that generation came and messed it all up.
    That's not what my criticism is at all. I did not even mention the lyrics of the Beatles in general, except for the concept of "Imagine", which is longing for peace, but going about it the wrong way. What I'm criticizing is our blaming attitude, without seeing the opther side of the story. That these people were confused and did not know the way of peace, because it was not being lived by many of those before them.

    Because that was one of the biggest, most glaring, and also unrepented of sins of the past, proving all was not so nice and "Christian" (in the true spiritual sense) in the "good old days". And it's not just me saying this, but a few others as well (also in the "We Want Back America" thread: http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=40103).
    If you want to go back, then become a "minority", and THEN go back, and see if it is all so great and wonderful.
    We had just decided that only sexual sin was wrong, and maybe blasphemy and unbelief and stuff like that, but murder of other people because of what God made them (both literal, as well as Christ's "spiritual" definition (MAtt.5:21, Luke 10:25-37) was OK, and many even justify it today as "well, that was just the ignorance of the day". Well, then all the sin you are complaining about now is the ignorance of this day. Why is one considered better, and the other like virtually a second Fall from Eden?
    If we make up our own minds what sin is offensive to God, and which is acceptable, how can we get mad at others for being sinful, and simply choosing different ones to make OK?
    Right. We're not SUPPOSED to be of the world, but we are often not what we are supposed to be in Christ. And then, when you talk about the religiosity of an entire nation or even civilization, you are talking about millions of individual souls, and many of them will not even be truly Christian. Many just go through the motions just because it is popular. Just look at all the lineral Christians today who no longer follow the morality, and have watered down or rejected all the cardinal doctrines. We can see that so easily, but then it was no different 100-300 years ago and beyond. The only difference was that there was no electronic media to broadcast everyone's thoughts and ideas instantly over the airwaves to everyone. We forget about that, and think that a handful of people (Darwin, Marx, Freud, Crowley, the Beatles, etc) just rose out of nowhere and were able to singlehandedly turn the entire civilization away from Christ. It is never that simple. However, it is easy to point fingers of blame that way, so we have someone to demand to give something back to us.
    So constantly comparing our goodness to others' badness IS the antitheis of the Gospel message which begins with the point that ALL have sinned and are in need of forgiveness. It is as people become converted that they are then to separate fromt he world, but the Gospel does not deal solely with or begin with "separation", as if some started out "good", compared with others!
    You do often sound angry, and I don't know how in good conscience can you participate in things such as "Take back America" and then dare to claim you are not in a rat race for worldly power! America is a kingdom of the world, not of Christ. If you want America "back", then not only are you in a rat race for world power, but you also confess that your "Christian heritage of the good ole days" was in fact another godless kingdom of the world, if it in fact ever "had" America to begin with; because the Kingdom of God has never been established on the earth yet. The closest we had to that was ancient Israel, and the whole purpose of that was to show us through their sin, that a wordly kingdom in this age is no hope, but will only turn to sin.

    The non-Christian world falls short of God's glory, not of ours! That's what I was pointing out there. If we think otherwise, then that is reveling in self-righteounsness. Because we fall short too, and receive justification only by God's unmerited pardon, not by any righteousness of our own. As long as we hold the world up to our "standards", and not God's perfect righteousness, then they will continue to just dismiss us as a bunch of phonies who only want to control others, while we sin ourselves.

    Yet we deny and make excuses for the sins of the past, in order to judge this modern world and its "agenda"/sin in light of the virtues of our past. THAT is the only thing I am getting at here. And you can't seem to read this without interpreting it as justification of the world and its agendas, and condemnation of Christians. It may seem that way, because too much stock has been put in the righteousness of Christian culture", and too much blame towards "the world" ("Them" out there)

    And I hope they'll see that some Christians are aware of our own sins, and not simply trying to control or condemn them.
     
  14. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
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    I didn't say they were just the victims of hypocritical Christians. It's your side that tends to think in terms of simplistic "justs" (even if you don't use the word) as if these problems have only one cause. I'm pointing out the other factors that are being omitted or glossed over. Since you have already stated their sin (the "agenda"); I'm not going to repeat that, but only focus on the omitted issues. So that is why you read all this as me just defending them and blaming it all on Christians.

    I too grew up on the Beatles (Abbey Road), and was planning to buy some more of their albums years ago, but then was convicted by the realization of the spirit behind the music. (Rather than a "beat" or other ridiculous side issues other Christians who focused on music made the issues in the past). So I've avoided them, and even gave up the Abbey Road CD I had for a few years (as well as one of the new singles that were released int he 90's). I too wonder how Christians can just gloss over all of this and not see the spiritual darkness behind it.

    I was just getting ready to return to post that I have just finished watching that video, and I pretty much believe it. Again; I have not argued against the theory of an agenda. That was why I had avoided them. Because their album/song concepts were so mystical, and you could not really tell what they were talking about. If "Lucy In the Sky with Diamonds" was about LSD, then who knows what the rest of that stuff was about ("Sun King", anyone? And even if "Lucy" had the other meaning as one person argued, there is still the possibility of dual or multiple meanings. It doesn't seem to be a coincidence that the initials of the song are "LSD").

    The issue with me, is when we just get into this blaming mode, with everything compared to our past virtues, and refuse to see how the hyprcrisy was a very big part of the factors that led to the rebellion and cultural revolution. Again, how can we extol the great Christian spirituality of the past, an then argue that a handful of people were able to in the course of a few generations destroy it all. That "Christianity" must itself not been as strong as you had thought. Uness you want to argue that Satan is stronger than God. So again; it's either God's righteousness or our own we look to; one or the other! The video stated something like all these kids "overnight turned from Jesus Christ to the gods of eastern mysticism". Do you really think this? How could one man snatch all these people out if Jesus' hands in direct contradiction to what He Himself said? (John 10:27-28)

    The video even goes into the cultural issues that all of this arose in. Crowley was probably one of those "mad geniuses" who saw the cracks and then took advantage of the situtation. Again, if the culture was really so in tune with God and following Him back then, how would this man be able to capture all the kids like that? (as well as all the other leaders scapegoated by Chriatian rhetoric). They were obviously ripe for the picking, and we have to examine the preexisting conditions to get a better idea of where the problem originated; not simply blame the people caught up in the end result.

    Satan may have been behind Crowley, the Beatles, and the rest of the rockers and hippies, and while the Bile says to espose them it also says to give him no occasion. Our hypocrisy was a big occasion for him, and we cannot sweep that under the rug and think that were were righteous, and allt he sin is everyone else's fault. For then, or entire message will be our own praising of our goodness, and blaming others and their sins, and fighting, and even arming ourselves and demanding something back, and then trying to take it back, and other behavior that makes us just as ripe for participating in Armageddon as anyone else, while we are just as sinful and often no more Christlike than they!
     
  15. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>

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    Huh??? I made a grand total of 3 (I think) short posts in that thread which were not in any way angry and in not any way profound. :eek:


    Eric, I think we have met common ground. :thumbs:
     
    #55 LadyEagle, Jun 2, 2007
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  16. Joe

    Joe New Member

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    Awww..... thanks :smilewinkgrin:
     
  17. Magnetic Poles

    Magnetic Poles New Member

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    People, get over it. Not everyone is a Christian, but that does not negate their artistry. The Beatles helped shape popular music, and wrote many great songs. The old cannard that rock & roll is the music of the devil may have been wacky in the 50s & 60s, but it just is plain ridiculous now. You don't have to like it, or the way any of the Fab Four lived their lives, but their contribution to the soundtrack of the last half century cannot be denied.
     
  18. Petra-O IX

    Petra-O IX Active Member

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    It was 40 years ago today and people still persist to believe some of the myths and half-truths and half-lies about the Beatles. The Beatles were no angels by any means but too many pious religous fanatics have blown the Beatles out of proportion with half-truths and half-lies to make themselves authorities over what is evil and what is not.You don't have to like the Beatles but repeating false rumors is supposed to be beneath Christian principals.
    Folks, ain't it time to get a life!
     
  19. Rufus_1611

    Rufus_1611 New Member

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    Which half-truths and half-lies would you be referring to?

    Which half-truths and half-lies would you be referring to?

    Which false rumors would you be referring to?

     
  20. Rufus_1611

    Rufus_1611 New Member

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    I, for one, will not deny their contribution to the devil's music.
     
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