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[it was] very good. Perfect?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by percho, Jul 22, 2011.

  1. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    I'm not sure that is accurate brother. I think God can create a creature without the ability to sin without it being equal to God. The very fact that it is created and God is not would certainly distinguish them, if nothing else.
     
  2. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    God does not need sustenance, he is completely self sufficient. But even in heaven we will be dependent upon God. We will NEVER be 100% equal to God, even in heaven.

    Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
    2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

    We will still need to eat in heaven, just as Adam and Eve had to eat in the garden. We are still dependent on God, even in heaven.

    Rev 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
    9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

    Do you see what happened here? John made a mistake in heaven. He bowed down and worshipped an angel by mistake.

    I think we will be very good in heaven, because we have Jesus's spirit and nature in us. But we may still be able to make errors. And why will the leaves of the tree of life be needed for healing?
     
  3. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Your difficulty is in the fact that you arbitrarily define goodness and perfection as being equal in power and authority with God.

    Are the angels holy? Yes, yet they are not God's equals.

    Was Adam good? Yes, but neither was he God's equal.

    Good and holy and perfect does not mean incorruptible, and the corruptibility of men and angels was due not to some oversight on God's part, but to His eteranl plan and purposes.

    But we have something the angels don't, and that is God as our Father. The angels were made, we are begotten. That which is born of God is a partaker of His nature, and is incorruptible.
     
  4. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    I know what good and holy mean, they mean without sin. In fact, this is what I have argued for months concerning Romans 3 to Calvinists. When God says there is none that doeth good, no, not one, he is speaking of sinless perfection, he is not saying that man is utterly incapable of doing some good. We know this because Jesus himself said man can do good.

    Lk 6:32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
    33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.

    Jesus showed here that sinners can do good. They can love those who love them. Loving someone who loves you is not evil, it is good. Jesus simply showed it is much better to love all men, even those that hate you. That does not negate that loving those who love you is good.

    In fact, if unsaved man is incapable of doing good, how could it be said that they "love" anybody? Love is good by definition. If unsaved man were truly incapable of doing any good, then he could not love anyone except himself. But Jesus showed sinners do love others.

    And in vs. 33 Jesus directly said that sinners can do good.

    So, how can you reconcile scripture that says no man doeth good, no, not one, with scripture where Jesus said sinners can do good? It must be understood when God says no man doeth good it is speaking of sinless perfection, not utter inability to do any good.

    The scriptures also say holy men wrote the scriptures. Were they sinless? No. They were holy because they were believers and were justified in God's sight.

    2 Pet 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

    David was a prophet, he wrote much scripture. Was he sinless? No, he committed adultery and had Uriah killed in battle to cover his sin. He was hardly sinless, but the scriptures say the prophets were holy men. They were holy because they were justified by faith, not because they were sinless in reality.
     
  5. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    I do not agree, I do not think God ever intended Satan, the fallen angels, or men to sin. Did he know they would sin? Yes. Did he plan from eternity to save fallen man through Jesus? Yes.

    Sin is necessary, Jesus said so.

    Mat 18:7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!

    Jesus said sin is necessary, it has to happen. But he also said woe to that man by whom the offence cometh. Jesus showed the sin originates in man, not from God. God did not decree sin, men sin because they choose to do so.

    I believe God knew men would sin because they must be fallible. They cannot possibly be perfectly holy like God. When God created man, he created them in his image with a free will. Free will necessitates that a man be able to choose to be willing and obedient, or refuse and rebel. So, God does not desire sin or condone it, it cannot be prevented. It is a necessary evil.

    Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

    God did not create anyone evil. But all men have free will and will choose to sin.
     
    #25 Winman, Jul 23, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 23, 2011
  6. Tom Bryant

    Tom Bryant Well-Known Member

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    To get back to the OP, I would use the word 'innocent' to describe Adam and Eve before the fall. Perfect, to me, seems to describe something or someone who has been tested and found perfect. Man was innocent until he was tested and fell.
     
  7. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    If we were unable to sin, we would be equal to God in holiness.

    Isa 40:25 To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One.

    There is only ONE who is Holy.
     
    #27 Winman, Jul 23, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 23, 2011
  8. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

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    I like that, seems to me that is exactly ALL we KNOW.
     
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