I've acquired 4 books

Discussion in 'Books / Publications Forum' started by Rippon, Dec 3, 2015.

  1. Rippon

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    At Thanksgiving I received four used books. They are in excellent condition.

    Speak Mandarin by Henry C. Fenn and M. Gardner Tewksbury. It was published in 1967.
    It uses the Yale System of speaking Chinese. The Yale System fell out of favor and popularity when Pinyin became the standard in 1958.

    (By the way, the scholar who devised Pinyin, Zhou Yaoping, will be 110 next month if the Lord wills. His 80 year old son died last Jan.)

    Anyway, the book is 234 pages including the index. It uses no Chinese characters but still manages to be rather complicated for me.

    With Mercy and with Judgment. It contains 21 messages by Alexander Whyte, a Scottish preacher extraordinaire (1836-1921). I have yet to set my teeth into it.

    The Story Bible by Pearl S. Buck. I know that there a number of good story Bibles out there for children such as the works by Catherine Vos and Hurlbut. However, Buck's contibution is good. She wasn't a Christian, though raised in a Christian home with missionary parents. But that doesn't detract from her effort a bit. She includes 49 Old Testament stories and 23 from the New Testament.

    There are no pictures, I am relieved to say. She has a modified King Jamesy style, for the most part. Occasionally she adds some clarifying remarks. Yet I haven't detected anything that goes against the Word of God. I have read about ten sections so far. I would recommend this book. It is enjoyable.

    Jesus, In His Own Words by Robert H. Mounce. You may have heard of his son William; a Bible scholar in his own right. R.H. Mounce served on the translation teams of the NIV,NIrV, NLT and ESV. And he has written several Bible commentaries on Matthew, John, Romans and Revelation.

    As the title says; it's Jesus speaking from the four Gospels. R.H.M. tells us in his introduction :
    "Although the style is contempory, the desire is to clarify the meaning of the original..."
    "The work falls clearly in the tradition of evangelical scholarship."
    "Good translation in the contemporary mode attempts to provide today's reader with an account that not only communicates accurately what Jesus did and said in the first century but also puts it in an idiom that has the same dynamic efect."
    "Some may say, 'But aren't you interpreting,' and the answer is yes. All translation involves interpretation. My prayer is that at no point have I misled in any way what Jesus was doing or saying."

    I really like what Mounce has done in 270 pages. Everything old is new again.
     
  2. Crabtownboy

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    Mandarin is a tough language. The four tones are hard enough, but the addition of the measure words before each noun just about killed me when I was studying this language. I took classes and also used the software Rosetta Stone. The Pinyin helped as well as the simplified characters. It was while studying Mandarin that I came to realize that meaning is lost in any translation. This made me wonder how much of the meaning in the words of Jesus we have lost in any translation of the Hebrew or Greek.

    Good luck with your studies.

    Jesus, In His Own Words is a most interesting book. To me it is very informative and instructive. Bringing Jesus' words together certainly sheds new light on his meaning. I mean some of his words put together in this way are tough. Enjoy the book. It is a good one

    Enjoy the other books also.
     
  3. Rippon

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    Do you think so much meaning is lost that we do not have reliable translations of the Word of God?

    I don't know what you mean by saying that the words of Jesus "put together in this way are tough." Please explain.

    Do you own the book?
     
  4. Crabtownboy

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    I do not know what you mean by reliable translations.

    Personally I believe we have reliable translations. The translators did as good a job as they could. But meaning is lost in any translation. I am stuck with English translations as that is the only language I am able to read the Bible in, but I know there is lost meaning. If I were extremely knowledgeable in Hebrew or Biblical Greek I would know where meaning the the translation was lost. There are words in any language that the meaning in the original language simply cannot be translated into another language and all the meaning captured.

    When you read His words with no other words added then, IMHO, his words come across even stronger than when others words are added to the text, as is the case in the Bible. This takes nothing away from the Bible.

    Yes. We used this book as our study guide in our church this year.
     
  5. Rippon

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    Hmm...
    But then you proceed to understand.
    Earlier you acknowledged that we have reliable translations. Now you seem to take that back.

    There are some aspects lost in translation --but the message comes through loud and clear. For example : Are we born again, or born from above? There are trade-offs --but not irretrievably lost chunks of the Bible.

    If you believe that the Holy Spirit superintends the Scripture.
    If you believe that the Lord sees to it that believers have access to His Word.
    Then certainly we have not "lost" the meaning as you seem to suggest.

    Are there particular doctrines from the Bible that you can itemize? Do you believe certain things from the Word of God?


    You are a mysterious one. I don't quite get it when you say "when no other words are added to the text." And even more puzzling "as is the case in the Bible."

    Please unravel your puzzling remarks.

    And tell me how I can use the standard color. It would help if you don't use blue.


     
  6. Crabtownboy

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    No mystery here. I know what I mean by reliable. I do not know what you were thinking when you say reliable.

    Again, I acknowledge that we have reliable translations. I do not know what your understanding of reliable translations means.

    The best example I know of in meaning lost is the word "love" as used when Jesus asks Peter "Do you love me" three times. English has only one word for love. Greek has four with four distinct meanings. Christ does not use the same Greek word in each question. Thus English looses meaning.

    What do you mean superintends?

    I know meaning is lost else well meaning Christians would not come up with such a variety of interpretations and there would be no arguments over what particular passages mean.

    Seems a very open ended question. Everyone has doctrines, whether they know their belief is a doctrine or not.

    "Believes certain things" is such a nebulous term to me. I have no idea how to answer or reply to the question. Give me an example.


    Have you read the book? If not I gently suggest you read the book. I believe my words will become clear if you do so. Christ's words are so very powerful.

    I cannot do so. Perhaps someone could, but not me. Additionally there are many shades of blue; i.e. azure, aero, Alice blue, Carolina blue, indigo, bean blue, B'dazzled Blue. The list of blues is very long. Which am I do describe?[/quote][/QUOTE]
     
    #6 Crabtownboy, Dec 4, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2015
  7. Rippon

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    Since you sound like quite a sceptic I wanted you to tell me what you meant when you use the word 'reliable' as it pertains to Scripture.

    What I mean by it is that good Bible translations are faithful and trustworthy. They have fidelity with the truth.




    According to NET notes there is little distinction. It's not worth making a fuss over. In the Syriac, Aramaic and Hebrew just one word is used in the those languages respectively for love in John 21:15-17. So nothing is lost.




    The Holy Spirit enlightens the reader of the Word of God --His chosen ones.




    Good translations of the Bible in English read about the same most of the time.

    People, mainly non-Christians, argue about things in the Word of God that are all-too-clear. Things such as Christ rising from the dead, His miraculous virgin birth, the very Deity of Christ, the reality of the Second Death are fought against all the time.




    I was specifically asking you to list some doctrines from the Bible which you hold to. "Everyone" is too general. I am asking you ,as a believer, to itemize some beliefs you hold to based on your faith in the Word of God.

    You seem to go around-the barn a lot.

    You seem to think a lot of Scripture is lost to us because our translations are not up-to-snuff.

    For a booklover you certainly don't know the meaning of many words.

    Do you believe that there is one mediator between God and humanity? If so, is Jesus the only way of salvation?

    Do you believe that everyone outside of Christ is doomed to everlasting misery?





    I haven't finished it yet. I have plowed through about 25 or so pages.

    You apparently haven't read with understanding. I appreciate Mounce and his work here very much. However, he does indeed add a good deal unlike what you indicated. I wrote out a number of examples from mainly John that Mounce expands upon versus the text in the NIV. I'll give some examples tomorrow Lord willing.

    So his work does just the opposite of what you have claimed.




    Just use the standard color of black.
     
  8. Crabtownboy

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    I do not know what you believe I am skeptical about.

    I agree with your statement as to good translations.

    I disagree. There is a huge difference between eros and agape.
    There is a large difference between phileo and agape.
    The fourth word Greek word, storge, does not appear in the Bible.


    As we began talking about books, a very good book is "The Four Loves" by C.S. Lewis.



    Yes, and the Holy Spirit uses books, people, commentaries and other means to enlighten people.



    Yes, they do read much the same. That is why a person has to be careful. A comma here or a missing comma or the addition of a word can change the meaning greatly.

    In the New World Translation adds the word a in John 1:1. It reads, In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and was a God. [Emphasis mine]. Do you see how this changes this verse to a totally unacceptable belief? It is subtle, it is sly and it is wrong.


    I agree.

    Start other threads on specific doctrines and we and others can discuss them.

    I will take that as a compliment.

    It is not the words that are problems. Is is the meaning lost in words between one language and another. I was reading yesterday and the author said the baby, a body, was given the name ... one word name ... that in that language means cries at the top of his lungs. That one word in that language would be impossible to translate as one word in English.

    I have a friend, a Nigerian Baptist pastor who said there is no word for snow in his tribal language. So to say "You sins have been washed white as snow" is impossible. So they say "Washed as white as wool."

    Years ago I heard another missionary say that where he worked the people had no word for sheep nor shepherd. But pigs are very important in their culture. So Jesus was called the Good Pig Keeper.

    Translators have to do the best they can within their language, but meaning is definitely lost and it cannot be helped. That is where, for folk like me, who do not understand Greek or Hebrew commentaries come in so handy and edify.

    All salvation goes through Jesus Christ.

    Yes.



     
  9. TCassidy

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    Uh, actually, no.

    The verbs agapao and phileo are used interchangeably in the Septuagint to render one and the same Hebrew word (e.g. in Genesis 37:3 Jacob's preferential love for Joseph is expressed by agapao but in the following verse by phileo).

    The verb agapao in itself does not necessarily imply a loftier love; it does so when the context makes this clear (on the other hand, in 2 Timothy 4:10 Demas's regrettable love for "this present world" is expressed by agapao).

    More important still is the fact that John himself uses the two verbs interchangeably elsewhere in his Gospel, e.g. in the statement that "the Father loves the Son" (agapao in 3:35, phileo in 5:20 and in references to "the disciple whom Jesus loved" (agapao in 13:23 and 19:26, 21:7 and 20; phileo in 20:2.).

    It is a mistake, then, to imagine a distinction between the two synonyms here.
     
    #9 TCassidy, Dec 5, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2015
  10. TCassidy

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    Why would you want to translate it as one word? A competent translator knows his job is to bring the words, and their meaning, into the receptor language.

    Just look at 2 Timothy 3:16 where one Greek word, θεοπνευστος, is translated by 5 English words, "given by inspiration of God."

    There is absolutely nothing wrong with that translation.
     
  11. Crabtownboy

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    I believe in the context of the conversation between Jesus and Peter there is a difference in the meaning. I have never heard a sermon saying otherwise. I have heard numerous sermons saying there is a difference. That is my belief.

    I will have to check to be sure, but I believe C.S. Lewis agrees with me. I am not sure if I still own his book The Four Loves. I may have given it to our church library or to another person. If I still have it I can easily check on this.


     
  12. TCassidy

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    I have heard several sermons saying that salvation is by our own good works. But that does not make it so.

    I have given you examples from the bible where the words are used interchangeably. I guess the question is, do you believe the bible or do you believe a sermon by some guy who couldn't read Greek if it were printed on his beer stein? :)
     
  13. Crabtownboy

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    I agree that good translators try very hard to convey meaning.as closely to the original as possible.

    It is not that simple. Different words are used in different translations:

    KJV Say All scripture is inspired by God

    NIV All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

    Amplified All Scripture is God-breathed (given by divine inspiration) ...........

    Darby Translation Every scripture (is) divinely inspired

    The Message Every part of scripture is God-breathed



    Now all these mean pretty much the same in English. But that does not mean that all the meaning of the Greek word could successfully be captured in either the word, "inspired" or "God-breathed". Is the truth there? Yes. Is all the meaning there. I don't know as I do not know Greek. Do I worry about it? No, I do not.

    Perhaps there is a BB member who is very fluent in Greek and could help us here.
    .
     
  14. TCassidy

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    That would be me. :)

    θεοπνευστος is a construct (two words stuck together to form a new word) of θεός meaning "God" and πνέω meaning to "breathe strongly."

    God breathed into the written words His very breath of life and thus they became "living words" (Acts 7:38 and Hebrews 4:12 - For the word of God is quick (living), and powerful (not just any breath, but a powerful breath!) . . .
     
  15. Crabtownboy

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    I am sorry and I mean no offense. But from my understanding of the two words I do not believe they are interchangeable and I especially do not believe they are interchangeable in the conversation between Jesus and Peter.

    I have never hears a preacher or a seminary professor say that Phileo and Agape.

    Phileo has to do with loves that is within a friendship.

    Agape is to love unconditionally in a sacrificing way as in God's loved us so much he gave his only son. Agape is the most noble love possible.

    The first and second time Jesus ask Peter, "Do you agape me?"

    Each time Peter said, "I phileo you.

    The problem in English is both have to be translated as "love" and the different meanings do not come through in English.

    The third time Jesus did not use agape me, but ask, "Do you phileo me?'

    And to me Peter in despair replied, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you,”

    Peter never used agape, the highest form of love in his answer.

    I have heard scholars say a more accurate translation of the third question would be; "Do you even phileo me?"

    I believe Jesus was teaching Peter that to phileo him is not enough. We must agape Jesus ... and they are not the same in meaning in this context.

    I have done a bit of research and so far I find no definitions or commentaries that say the two words can be used interchangeable in Jesus and Peter's conversation.

    Blessings.


     
  16. TCassidy

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    And this understanding of the Greek verbs is based on how many years of study of Koine Greek?
     
  17. TCassidy

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    Read Trench: "Peter finds the first two instances as "far too cold" and wants a more affectionate word for love."

    Read Dr. Don Carson (arguably the finest Greek scholar alive today, and Research Professor at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School since 1978).

    D. A. Carson explains:

    Some expositions of these verses turn on the distribution of the two different verbs for “love” that appear. . . . This will not do, for at least the following reasons . . . . The two verbs are used interchangeably in this Gospel. . . . The Evangelist constantly uses minor variations for stylistic reasons of his own. This is confirmed in the present passage. In addition to the two words for “love,” John resorts to three other pairs: bosko and poimano (“feed” and “take care of” the sheep), arnia and probata (“lambs” and “sheep”), and oida and ginosko (both rendered “you know” in v. 17). These have not stirred homiletical imaginations; it is difficult to see why the first pair should. (The Gospel According to John, pp. 676-677)

    Don Wilkins, one of the translators of the New American Standard Bible (Updated Edition) - regarded as one of the most accurate translations of the Bible today - has this to say about this passage (while discussing it with other Greek scholars on the B-GREEK e-mail discussion list), "On the more specific question of PHILEO/AGAPAO, I would like to suggest that PHILEO is a higher form of love than AGAPAO. AGAPAO seems to be a 'charitable' love in that one provides for another's needs, without developing a relationship as a friend to the other person (i.e. no personal ties). PHILEO, on the other hand, implies the close connection between friends and the related obligations that were so important in the ancient world. By this interpretation, then, Jesus twice asks Peter if he is committed to him at the lower level of love, and Peter responds by raising the commitment to the higher level of a true friend. The third time, Jesus questions whether Peter is really committed to him at this higher level, or perhaps whether Peter really understands what such commitment really entails, and this would explain Peter's hurt feelings. So it is not that Jesus asks him the question three times, it is rather (as I think the Greek implies) the fact that Jesus uses PHILEO the third time."
     
  18. Crabtownboy

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    Sorry, I do not buy that line of reasoning. I have never heard anyone suggest that phileo is a higher form of love than agape as Dr. Carson suggests? On this one I believe he is wrong. The weight of everything I have read and heard speak the opposite.

    I am sorry, I really am, but I am not impressed with Trinity's accreditation. It is not of the highest.





     
  19. TCassidy

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    You have got to be kidding. ATS, The Association of Theological Schools, is the Gold Standard for accreditation of graduate and post graduate universities. TEDS has absolutely nothing to do with The Higher Learning Commission.

    Dr. Kenneth Kantzer, Th.D, Harvard Divinity School, was the dean of faculty in the late 60s and 70s and established Trinity as the flagship school for academic rigor and unimpeachable educational qualifications of its faculty. (In the interests of full disclosure Dr. Kantzer is my maternal uncle - my mother was a Kantzer. Dr. Kantzer passed away in 2002, aged 85 years, and my mother passed away in 2008, aged 102 years.)

    John S. Feinberg, PhD, Professor of Biblical and Systematic Theology, BA, University of California, Los Angeles, MDiv, Talbot Theological Seminary, ThM, Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, MA, PhD, University of Chicago.

    Bruce L. Fields, PhD, Chair of the Biblical and Systematic Theology Department, Associate Professor of Biblical and Systematic Theology. BA, University of Pennsylvania, MDiv, ThM, Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, PhD, Marquette University.

    John F. Kilner, PhD, Director of Bioethics Programs, Franklin and Dorothy Forman Chair of Christian Ethics and Theology, Professor of Bioethics and Contemporary Culture. BA, Yale University, MDiv, Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, MA, PhD, Harvard University.

    David J. Luy, PhD, Assistant Professor of Biblical and Systematic Theology. BM, Wheaton College, MDiv, Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, PhD, Marquette University.

    Thomas H. McCall, PhD, Professor of Biblical and Systematic Theology, Director, Carl F. H. Henry Center for Theological Understanding. BA, Hobe Sound Bible College, MA, Wesley Biblical Seminary, PhD, Calvin Theological Seminary.

    Harold A. Netland, PhD, Professor of Philosophy of Religion and Intercultural Studies. BA, Biola University, MA, PhD, Claremont Graduate University.

    Kevin J. Vanhoozer, PhD, Research Professor of Systematic Theology. BA, Westmont College, MDiv, Westminster Theological Seminary, PhD, Cambridge University, England.

    D.A. Carson, PhD, Research Professor of New Testament. BSc, McGill University, MDiv, Central Baptist Seminary, Toronto, PhD, University of Cambridge.

    David W. Pao, PhD, Chair of the New Testament Department, Professor of New Testament. BA, Wheaton College, MA, Wheaton College Graduate School, MTS, MA, PhD, Harvard University.

    And I could go on and on and on for several pages. These people are some of the highest qualified faculty members in the world.

    And you question their academic credentials and the school's accreditation?

    Yeah. Right. One of the top 5 schools in the country and you know better than them, and ATS. <roll eyes>
     
    #19 TCassidy, Dec 6, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2015
  20. TCassidy

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    I just quoted Trench, Carson, and Wilkins, arguably three of the finest writers of bible commentary in the past 200 years. Perhaps the problem is that you didn't read them? You do seem to imply that by your above statement.
     

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