I've Given Up Dispensationalism...

You didn't write the bible. Proven.

Darren

 

You have a hermeneutical chip on your shoulder. God not agreeing with a translation?? Talk about arrogant!! :saint:

Darren

 

You are obviously extremely perspicacious to have become so learned having been on the Forum such a short time.. I see you are also an adept disciple of Darby. My congratulations!

 

And I thought you were extremely perspicacious and you haven't learned to read yet. But hang in there with Darby!

 

New to this forum yes but not new to forums in general, particularly christian forums. So I wouldn't accredit what I know to the forum, why would I?

Darren

 

Ahem, back to the topic. Never read Darby anyway, I just follow what the bible says.

Darren

 

John 1:5. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

 

Old Regular, you cited these verses to say that Abraham was not looking for earthly land, but for heaven:

And what is the city Abraham was looking for? Hebrews 12:22 is clear that this city is the new heavenly Jerusalem. Hebrews 13:14 also says that present-day believers are also looking for this city. The new Jerusalem IS a heavenly city, but Revelation tells us that this city will descend out of heaven and come to the new earth. Therefore, the hope of Abraham for a heavenly city will be fulfilled in the fulfillment of the earthly promise of land that God gave to him in the Abrahamic covenant. Praise God that He keeps His promises just as he gave them and no theological gymnastics or spiritualized hermeneutics are needed to understand them.

 

Actually the New Jerusalem is the Church, the Bride of Jesus Christ, if you will just read the Scripture carefully.

Revelation 21:1, 2
1. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Revelation 21:9, 10
9. And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying,Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb’s wife.
10. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

 

Nevertheless, the heavenly city which Abraham looked for descends to earth and fulfulls the unbreakable earthly promise that God gave Abraham.

 

Whatever! If it makes you happy!

 

Adam Clark commentary written in the 1800`s.

{Genesis 13:15} To thee will I give it and thy seed for ever.This land was given to Abraham,that it might be lineally and legally descend to his posterity;and though Abram himself cannot be said he possessed it {Acts 7:5},yet it was the gift of God to him in behalf of his seed:and this was always designed of God,not that Abraham should possess it,but that this posterity should,till the manifestation of CHRIST IN THE FLESH,And this is chiefly what is to be understood by the words FOR EVER,TO THE END OFTHE PRESENT DISPENSATION and the commencement of the new.

Yes God has already done what you think He is going to do.{Josh 21:43-45}

Matthew Henry`s commentary within last 300 years on Joshua 21:43-45



We have here the conclusion of this whole matter, the foregoing history summed up, and, to make it appear the more bright, compared with the promise of which it was the full accomplishment. God’s word and his works mutually illustrate each other. The performance makes the promise appear very true and the promise makes the performance appear very kind. I.


God had promised to give the seed of Abraham the land of Canaan for a possession, and now at last he performed this promise (v. 43): They possessed it, and dwelt therein. Though they had often forfeited the benefit of that promise, and God had long delayed the performance of it, yet at last all difficulties were conquered, and Canaan was their own. And the promise of the heavenly Canaan is as sure to all God’s spiritual Israel, for it is the promise of him that cannot lie.


II. God had promised to give them rest in that land, and now they had rest round about, rest from the fatigues of their travel through the wilderness (which tedious march, perhaps, was long in their bones), rest from their wars in Canaan, and the insults which their enemies there had at first offered them.

They now dwelt, not only in habitations of their own, but those quiet and peaceable ones; though there were Canaanites that remained, yet none that had either strength or spirit to attack them, nor so much as give them an alarm. This rest continued till they by their own sin and folly put thorns into their own beds and their own eyes. III. God had promised to give them victory and success in their wars, and this promise likewise was fulfilled: There stood not a man before them, v. 44. They had the better in every battle, and which way soever they turned their forces they prospered.

It is true there were Canaanites now remaining in many parts of the land, and such as afterwards made head against them, and became very formidable.

But, 1. As to the present remains of the Canaanites, they were no contradiction to the promise, for God had said he would not drive them out all at once, but by little and little, Ex. 23:30. They had now as much in their full possession as they had occasion for and as they had hands to manage, so that the Canaanites only kept possession of some of the less cultivated parts of the country against the beasts of the field, till Israel, in process of time, should become numerous enough to replenish them.

2. As to the after prevalency of the Canaanites, that was purely the effect of Israel’s cowardice and slothfulness, and the punishment of their sinful inclination to the idolatries and other abominations of the heathen, whom the Lord would have cast out before them but that they harboured and indulged them. So that the foundation of God stands sure. Israel’s experience of God’s fidelity is here upon record, and is an acquittance under their hands to the honour of God, the vindication of his promise which had been so often distrusted, and the encouragement of all believers to the end of the world: There failed not any good thing, no, nor aught of any good thing (so full is it expressed), which the Lord had spoken unto the house of Israel, but in due time all came to pass, v. 45.


Such an acknowledgment as this, here subscribed by Joshua in the name of all Israel, we afterwards find made by Solomon, and all Israel did in effect say Amen to it, 1 Ki. 8:56. The inviolable truth of God’s promise, and the performance of it to the utmost, are what all the saints have been ready to bear their testimony to; and, if in any thing the performance has seemed to come short, they have been as ready to own that they themselves must bear all the blame.

 

No, OR, it's not about me or my happiness. It's about God and His faithfulness in fulfilling his promise to Abraham. Abraham looked for a heavenly city and he was promised an earthly land. The New Jerusalem descending to earth is the fulfillment to Abraham of all aspects of what he was promised. God is faithful. God is no liar.

 

And you talk about spiritualizing Scripture. If you want to believe the above foolishness nothing I can say will say will change your mind. So if the above makes you happy then be happy.

Incidentally why was Abraham looking for a heavenly city, which is not really a city but the Church the Bride of Jesus Christ, if he was promised an earthly land? Are you telling me that Abraham did not believe God? Shame on you swaimj!

 

Old Regular, Please complete this sentence:

"While I get my pure theology from the Bible and nothing else, and while I don't agree with him 100%, ____________ in his book __________ comes closest to my personal belief system."

 

Come now, OR, I'm a reasonable fellow and I have often been convinced by a sturdy argument. You are offering nothing of substance to show why your position is correct. You call my view "foolishness" but cannot seem to explain the wisdom of your own view.

 

The New Jerusalem decending to this old earth is unbiblical.{Rev 21:1}AND I saw a new heaven and a new earth:for the first heaven and the first earth WERE PASSED AWAY;and there was no more sea.

No God promised a New Heaven and New Earth so Abraham did receive the promise of God in Joshua`s life time and the land was always conditional {Joshua 21:43-45}


Regardless, the covenant with Abraham was surely conditional. The fulfillment of God's promises depended on obedience. Abraham was required to leave 1) his country, 2) his kindred, and 3) his father's house, and 4) move "into a land that I will shew thee." (Gen. 12:1) He must 5) move throughout the land, Gen. 13:17.

He became father of the faithful because he believed in faith and acted on that faith, as must Christian believers if they are to be blessed. And now the LORD is laying before Abraham further promises, the fulfillment of which require that he 6) "walk before Me, and be thou perfect." His name is now changed from Abram to "Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee." Then God reaffirmed the land promise. "And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God," God to thy seed.--Gen. 17:1-8

Were there any other conditions in God's dealing with Abraham?

Yes, 7) fleshly circumcision was mandatory, symbolic of the godly devotion of a circumcized heart. (Gen. 17:9-14, 23-27) Without heart circumcision none of Abraham's posterity would be recognized as his seed. Furthermore, Abraham must 8) "command his children and his household after him, and 9) they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which He hath spoken of him." (Gen. 18:19) The instruction of Moses in Deut. 16:18-21 indicates that Abraham was obedient in this. And 10) having obeyed the LORD's instruction to offer Isaac in Moriah, God testified that because Abraham did that, He swore by Himself that He would bless.--Gen. 22:1, 16-18

Does not Gen. 17:8 say that the land would be given to Abraham's seed "for an everlasting possession"?

Yes it does, and it is the first of the Bible's three uses of Hebrew for 'everlasting possession'. (Gen. 48:4, Lev. 25:34) Some teach that Jews today occupy the land toward fulfillment of that original promise. But the promise does not support that idea. 'Everlasting' is from the Hebrew olam, Strong #5769. Strong's definition: "prop. concealed, i.e. the vanishing point; gen. time out of mind (past or future)..." Gesenius' definition: "pr. what is hidden; specially hidden time, long; the beginning or end of which is either uncertain or else not defined;..." Olam has been used to express time of vastly different lengths. Eternity is one of its meanings. But it is also used to describe the length of a man's servitude, of a woman's pregnancy; the longevity of a king; the time preceding an individual's repentance, of rejoicing in song, of obedience; the duration of enmity between nations, of the Levitical priesthood.


In light of both the meaning and usage of olam, God's promise that Canaan would be given to Abraham's seed for ever, that is, as "an everlasting possession," cannot be understood as meaning that, once given, it would belong to Abraham's fleshly seed for all time, nor even from age to age. It meant that it would be given to Abraham's seed for as long as they were worthy to have it.

The termination of that "everlasting possession" became clear to Israel when its end was reached. Canaan was both given to and lost by Abraham's fleshly line. None should conclude from the promise of Gen. 17:8 that God obligated Himself to restore to fleshly Israel as an everlasting possession land once their's but which their progenitors lost through unfaithfulness.


But doesn't that explanation diminish the promise?

Not at all. Those to whom the promise was made understood the meaning. The importance of the promise is not affected. The continuance of Israel's blessing was conditional upon their faith and behavior. This was further indicated just a few days after God promised Abraham's seed "all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession." Before Sarah conceived, God expressed to a faithful servant His appraisal of Abraham. Words in that narrative indicate the condition upon which God would give the land to Abraham's seed 'after him'. "I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which He hath spoken of him." (Gen. 18:19) God had said that He would 1) "give unto thee and to thy seed after thee, all the land of Canaan, 2) for an everlasting possession; and 3) I will be their God."--Gen. 17:8

So what exactly is the condition in the statement in Gen. 18:19?

There are two: "that Abraham would command his children and his household after him"; and that "they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment." The blessings depended upon both requirements being met. Divine foreknowledge saw that Abraham would teach his children to, and that at least a remnant would do justice and judgment. The majority in Israel failed to do justice and judgment, despite the instruction of Abraham and Moses. It must therefore be concluded that only the faith seed, those who have the faith of Abraham, are his children. No doubt Jesus had in mind those words which Abraham heard, when He taught in John 8:33-39: "I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but...If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham."
Gen. 18:19 means that for the LORD to "bring upon Abraham that which God had spoken of him" his children must keep "the way of the LORD." The fulfillment of God's promise to Abraham was contingent upon his seed having a faith deserving of reward. The importance of this verse is its teaching that faith is essential to the fulfillment of God's promises to His people.


Who should be understood as Abraham's promised seed?

Abraham's promised seed and the antitypical Isaac is Christ Jesus Himself, without whom there could be no salvation, no resurrection, and no blessing. Heb. 11:19 indicates that Abraham was so fully involved in obeying God's instruction to slay Isaac, that when he was stopped, "he received him in a figure" as from the dead. Isaac, in whom Abraham's seed shall be called, pictured Christ Jesus raised from death by God's power. God foresaw the continual chain of faith which would reach even unto and motivate Jesus to offer Himself. Upon His sacrifice depended the eventual bringing "upon Abraham that which God had spoken of him." Peter's testimony soon after Pentecost affirms that Jesus is Abraham's promised seed.--Acts 3:25,26
In Gal. 3:16,19,24, Paul emphasizes that Abraham's promised seed is Christ. "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ." "Which is Christ" states Paul's understanding of whom God meant by "And to thy seed." The Law Covenant was added to the experiences of the children of Israel "until the seed should come to whom it has been promised." "The law has become a trainer of us to Christ, in order that by faith we might be justified."


Is anyone else part of "Abraham's seed" which God said shall "bless all the families of the earth"?

Yes, all children of God by faith in Christ Jesus, having been baptized into Christ, having put on Christ, if being Christ's, are "Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Gal. 3:26-29) The Apostle also teaches in Rom. 4:16,18 that faithful believers in Jesus are Abraham's seed. These passages help make plain the obscure promises of Messiah's seed in Isa. 53:10,12 and 59:20,21. God promised Abraham regarding Sarah that "nations" and "kings of people shall be of her." (Gen. 17:16) Inasmuch as Isaac is also referred to in the statement, the nations and kings refer to either the 12 tribes or their two kingdoms, and their respective kings. Represented among the "nations" from the spiritual point of view would be the firstfruit believers since Pentecost which I Pet. 2:9 calls "a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people." They are the "children of promise" mentioned in Gal. 4:27,28.

 

I don't have time to deal with all you have said in a point-by-point rebuttal. However, the view refected in this particular statement I find to be unsustainable.

First, suppose we took other "everlasting promises" in the scripture and interpreted them this way. For instance, the statement "these go away into everlasting life, but the rest into everlasting punishment" would have no meaning at all. No eternal promise of God would have any value.

Second, the scriptures declare, in reference to the church, that the gates of hell will not prevail against it. However, either of us could cite individual churches that have failed and have ceased to exist. To claim from these individual failures that the promise that the gates of hell will not prevail against the church has now been abrogated would be gross error. In the case of Abraham's descendants, yes, there are generations that have been unfaithful and who have, as a result, been taken out of the land that God promised. This does not abrogate God's promise to Abraham nor does it make it necessary to change the terms of the promise as your view does.

 

You are the typical dispensationalist. You twist Scripture to fit your false beliefs. If you will not believe the clear teaching of Scripture why would you believe anything I say. Scripture clearly teaches that the NEW JERUSALEM, THE CHURCH, IS THE BRIDE OF JESUS CHRIST but you twist that to mean:

And I see that you dispensationalists still like to question the veracity of God.

 

Dispensationalism is a theological system in an effort to explain the seemingly difficult apart from the historical context. The one major problem is that it introduces more problems.