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Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Internet Theologian, Nov 20, 2015.

  1. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    So, what part of man do you believe was not affected by the fall and is thus righteous and able to approach God on its own merits?

    Did his body remain pure and holy through the fall?

    Did his soul (will, intellect, emotions) remain pure and holy through the fall?

    Did his spirit remain pure and holy through the fall?

    "Total Depravity" does mean everybody is a bad as he possibly could be, it means that every part of man, the total man, was affected by the fall. :)
     
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  2. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    Yes, everyone is affected and has sin nature. Total inability/depravity isn't clearly taught in scripture. If it is, please show me some verses? Because i've described two occurrences where Jesus Marveled at Their Faith AND Unbelief. If a man was "Totally Depraved" as if Light was impenetrable, Then why would Christ make those claims?

    I am at work and will have to continue later, sorry. Have a blessed day in our Lord Jesus.
     
  3. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Simple. He didn't. It is the natural result of the fall.
     
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  4. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Genesis 6:5: "The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."

    Jeremiah 13:23: "Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil."

    John 6:44a: "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him."

    Romans 3:10-11: "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God."

    Romans 8:7-9: "For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him."

    Ephesians 2:3b: "[We] were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind."

    1 Corinthians 2:14: "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."
     
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  5. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Because there is a vast difference between saving faith and living faith.
     
  6. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    Ez. 18:30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord God. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel?
     
  7. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    The "natural" result? Really?

    So it wasn't God's plan that humans would be depraved after the fall, it just "naturally" happened...
     
  8. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    I will address more later, please forgive me. Have a blessed day in our Lord. Please note my responses in red.
     
  9. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Wow! You have a LOT of reasons to not believe what the bible says!
     
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  10. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Yes. Now you are beginning to understand. That is what "fallen" means. The natural state of man went from innocence to depraved.
     
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  11. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    How? Who decided they would go from innocence to depravity?
     
  12. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it:
    for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

    17 and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.'
     
  13. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    Yes or no. Was it God's plan that man would be totally depraved after the fall?
     
  14. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    How do you know you aren't part of the ones who "Doesn't have ears to hear" and that you are just parroting what sounds good to you?
     
  15. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    God revealed to man His law, life, and fellowship in His untested yet pre-fallen state.[original righteousness]. In this verse in Gen. the severe consequence of rebellion was made abundantly clear. God meant what He said.

    I believe God has ordained whatsoever comes to pass.

    The fact that Jesus was mediator and surety before the world was indicates God had indeed considered mankind as fallen in Adam.....or creation could not have taken place.

    Does this qualify as a yes or a no to you?
     
  16. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    ITL,
    God creates the law of gravity.

    That law helps us....[we do not just float away into space]

    Knowing the law exists you decide to step off the top of the empire state building despite being warned of the consequences of such action!

    People looking at your splattered remains.......do they blame the law of gravity? or blame God because such a law and its consequences exist?
    Did God push you off?

    yes or no

    or do we blame your parents for having you in the first place?
     
  17. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    How does he know the law exists? He is "Totally Unable" to know spiritual things.

    Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual:

    Which doesn't mesh if we compare it to this...

    Romans 1:19-21 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
    For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
    Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.


    How can there be such a great cause and effect If there is no choice???

    God manifested Himself to them and they rejected Him...and then their hearts were darkened.

    Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk
     
  18. Internet Theologian

    Internet Theologian Well-Known Member

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    When speaking of 'total' inability it is factual that none can come because they are unable. Salvation isn't mental assent to facts either, if it were the demons would be saved (James 2:19), so inability is deeper than ability to assent to data.

    No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. John 6:44

    It is not no man may, it is no man can which is inability not permission denied. We also only believe by the same power that raised Christ; Eph. 1:19 thus it is not inherent and innate or 'choice' as this power does not reside in man, and is external, belonging to Sovereign God. Perhaps unaware you are preaching a man centered soteriology basing salvation as in man's grasp and that he is able to secure it, telling man he is able. Scripture rejects that notion. It is all of God, not just 99.99999999% - all of it.
     
  19. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    I agree it is all God. Where did i say i Did anything supernatural?

    Edit...Perhaps you are aware you ARE preaching a man-invented soteriology?
     
  20. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    "JonShaff,

    Unsaved men "know things".....but because of sin they twist and distort the God given meaning and purpose to replace it with their own sinful desires and notions.
    They can never come to a godly saving knowledge without the Spirit granting it to them.
    Instead they invent things according to their rules......which translates to sinful idolatry;

    See psalm 115



    This section describes mans universal and total depravity......here;
    Because that, when they knew God,


    they glorified him not as God,
    neither were thankful;
    but became vain in their imaginations,
    and their foolish heart was darkened.

    22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

    23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image
    made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

    24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

    25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie,
    and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

    26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

    27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

    28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;


    Man makes choices even if his will is not free.


    They always do...psalm 14:1-3
     
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