J.M. Carroll book

"Samuel Morland's, "History of the Evangelical Churches in the Valleys of Piedmont" has survived."
"
Morland lived in a time and place (England 1658) where being Roman Catholic was a lot more dangerous than being Puritan (like he was).
So the survival of his work is no great mystery.

In fact the second part of the following statement;
"Anabaptists were burned, beheaded, drowned and exiled for not bowing to the authority of Rome. all historical facts which can be gleaned from the Catholic Encyclopedia. Most of the other records were burned."
"
is simply untrue. A lot of records covering the persecution of the Ana-Baptists have survived, including among a host of others the work of Menno Simons (great Ana-Baptist theologian and a fellow countryman of mine) and the cages that still hang from the largest church in Münster (used for the display of the bodies of executed Ana-Baptist foremen).
http://cat.xula.edu/tpr/images/munster-cage.jpg
The Catholic encyclopedia is by the way at best a secondary source when it comes to events that took place centuries before it was written.

"The word Baptist is short for Anabaptist."
"
They are 2 distinctive movements, in fact I suspect that you would not want a modern (or 17th century) anabaptist minister as a guestpreacher in your church, staunch pacifism, disdain of official worldly politics and soft spot for social activism leads to VERY different sermons compared to the usual baptist stuff and the same goes for a Waldensian preacher (they also still exist).

"It is the "Baptist Faith and Practice" which is traceable throughout history. And She never went by way of Rome, Constantinople, or Wittenburg. "
"
That's where the problem starts. There have always been groups that disagree with the state church (whatever that state church may be), but there is no tracable line of "Baptist Faith and Practice" throughout history. That notion is 19th century American baptist theology not history

 

Where the problem starts: we seem to be separating "history" from divine revelation, like the anthropologists try to separate the history of Man from the Holy Writ. We have been doing that sort of thing ever since the Tower of Babel. It still does not work.

Is it not reasonable to conclude: Since Jesus said He would build His assembly, the gates of hell would not prevail, He would never leave Her nor forsake Her (His Bride), He would be with Her through the age, that He kept His promises--and that one should be able to see the fulfillment of this in the History of the World.

corollary: Since the wedding has not yet taken
place, the Bride is still here and readily identifiable--She is without spot, wrinkle or blemish.

These are all divine historical data points.

Start in the historical data in the infallible Book first.

Selah,

Bro. James,
Phds-0, Masters-0, Bachelors-0,High School-148th in 150. Born from above-yes. I also love to fish.

 

I agree Bro. James, but The Bride does not go by a denominational title. Christ will not call the Baptist church, Methodist church, or Mennonite church. He will call His church. That is any body of believers who preach and teach the gosple; the word of God.

 

James
"we seem to be separating "history" from divine revelation"
"
We indeed, your argument works both ways after all, implicating you as much as any rabid atheist historian...
Making up what a text in the Bible means and making up history to support that meaning (that's what you've been doing) is just as bad as simply ignoring Scripture.


sister Julie
Doctorates-2, born again-sure, scariest verger on earth on top of that.

 

Wow, a "scariest verger" don't recall ever catching one of them before. Is that a recently evolved species?

Bless you; and thank you for making some of my argument more vivid.

Back to the pond you go.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

To be sure, the Bride is not a denomination. Never said She is.

"Baptists" who trace their beginnings through the so-called Protestant Reformation in the 16th century consider themselves a denomination, and most would call themselves "Protestant".

True Baptists deny any connection with Luther, Calvin, etal. And they contend further that they have been protesting false doctrine since the first century. They deny any connection with Rome as well. That is why they were nearly wiped from the earth--but God kept a remnant. They are here today.

You will not find them listed in the Yellow Pages as True Baptist Church. It is not in the name--it is a Faith and Practice which has been in every generation--just like Jesus promised.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

Amen Bro. James

 

"Is that a recently evolved species?"
"
A verger (or in Dutch a koster) is the caretaker of a churchbuilding. You see being a historian doesn't pay the bills.

"Delusional Baptists deny any connection with Luther, Calvin, etal. And they contend further that they have been protesting false doctrine since the first century."
"
Fixed your spelling.

 

A Baptistic Statement of Faith may be found in churches without "Baptist" in their name. However, such churches are usually Protestants--who believe in the universal-invisible church--a <snip> not allowed by True Baptistic churches.

In fact, many churches called Baptist are universal church Protestants.

Selah,

Bro. James

Bro. James, that is a word that Baptists should not use about each other without proper justification. This thread, like many before, is sliding downhill and will be closed if it continues in this fashion.

There has long been a disagreement among Baptists about this matter, and your willingness to question whether Baptists who came from the Reformed tradition are "true Baptists" cannot stand up to historical scrutiny.

rsr

[ October 21, 2004, 01:28 AM: Message edited by: rsr ]

 

Thank-you for the censorship. It helps prove my point: Not all Baptists are True Baptists.

May I continue to use the phrase: false doctrine?

Let me make one more observation before I am banished to Patagonia: If the reformers of the 16th century rejected the authority of Rome, which they in effect did, what did the reformers
reform? And from whence cometh their authority? NIHIL EX NIHIL FIT or 0+0=0

Selah,

Bro. James

 

Willingness to question?

That is a basic religious freedom. We are free to peacefully espouse any religion we choose. Such is written in the U. S. Constitution--that includes espousing the prince of the power of the air--whom many worship.

Religious freedom is how darkness is exposed to the Light. Why can we not be Berean Christians?
They searched the scriptures daily to see if "these things" were so.

My assertions are backed up by Holy Writ. That should settle the matter. The "historians" are obviously confused--the "author of confusion" has a large following.

The Truth stands--whether we believe it or not--whether we stand up for Truth or not.

May we resolve this before the "bema seat"?

"The mystery of iniquity already works"

Is the www available in Patagonia?

Selah,

Bro. James

 

Peaceably,"reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and DOCTRINE"--but do it privately.

Excuse me, but there is a spiritual warfare going on, and this forum is a good place to identify the participants--peacefully.

I thought we were reproving/debating--how can we have a debate without disagreement? Looking back over this thread, I saw several Amens. I am not the only one out there interested in this subject.

Where are you silent majority? It is time to speak up before we are put off the air.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

If you like aligning yourself with <snip> then you subscribe to the idea of Baptists linking themselves back to Jesus.

I see the trail of blodd as nothing more than religious nonsenes and a waste of time. Who cares what the link is when someone comes to Christ.

What does 1 Cor say about being proud of yourso called heritage?

1 Cor. 1:10-15, "Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment. For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Chloe's people, that there are quarrels among you. Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, "I am of Paul," and "I of Apollos," and "I of Cephas," and "I of Christ." Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, so that no one would say you were baptized in my name."

To be fair, I will snip the "h-word" on both sides.

rsr

[ October 21, 2004, 12:42 PM: Message edited by: rsr ]

 

Please slap me on both sides of my face--I am asleep.

Let me make sure I understand the guidelines:

1. When we speak of the history of: The New Testament Church, The Bride of Christ,The Faith Once Delivered to the Saints, and the gates of hell attacking The Bride--that's considered theology.

2. When we bow to the fiats of Rome and Wittenburg-- that is history. And historical facts are false if they disagree with commonly held beliefs of the majority.

Surely, I must have the wrong paradigm regarding anything historical. Is this not the same paradigm as the "anthropos" and the "paleos" use to date the rocks by the fossils therein and the fossils by rocks thereof--an interesting bit of circumlocution?

Is it acceptable to use this site to preach The Word of God?

Shall we start a new category--History of Theology? But then we will still have to speak concerning doctrine--true and false-- without attacking anyone's paradigms.


Selah,

Bro. James

 

Back to the Carroll book:

There is nothing convoluted about what is described in this little pamphlet. Another title could be:"How the Gates of Hell Assaulted the Bride of Christ."

Are the events described historical? Indeed they are.

What are the facts? Some say sketchy and arguable. Some say abundant and incontravertable.

Can we put the facts through the paradigm of objectivity--with our minds open? We have not so far.

When two disagree, they both cannot be correct; they can both be incorrect. How do we decide? Go to the infallible Book--and find the Bride--and then follow Her through the "Hallowed Halls of Human History".(Ask the Holy Spirit to guide).

Selah,

Bro. James