"Jacob I Have Loved"

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by KenH, Sep 25, 2002.

  1. KenH

    KenH
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    32,485
    Likes Received:
    0
    (Romans 9:13 NKJV) As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."

    Calvinists and non-Calvinists often debate this verse over the phrase "Esau I have hated". But the real focus, and the absolutely amazing phrase in this verse, is "Jacob I have loved" for

    (Isa 64:6 NKJV) But we are all like an unclean thing, And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags; We all fade as a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, Have taken us away.

    Christian regards,

    Ken
    A Spurgeonite [​IMG]

    [ September 25, 2002, 09:35 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]
     
  2. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2001
    Messages:
    5,140
    Likes Received:
    25
    Ken, this doesn't contribute much to the discussion, but I have always liked what I heard J. Vernon McGee (not much of a Calvinist) say about that verse. Something like, "I don't have a problem with God saying He hated Esau; my problem is why God said He loved Jacob."
     
  3. Dualhunter

    Dualhunter
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2002
    Messages:
    872
    Likes Received:
    0
    Something to consider is, who is being refered to? It could be the brothers Jacob and Esau or it could be their descendants, Israel and Edom. I believe it is refering to Israel and Edom, the love towards Jacob was shown by the mercy and blessings God poured on Israel (despite their rebellion) and the hatred towards God is described below:

    1 The (1) oracle of the word of the LORD to (2) Israel through Malachi.
    2 "I have (3) loved you," says the LORD. But you say, "How have You loved us?" "Was not Esau Jacob's brother?" declares the LORD. "Yet I (4) have loved Jacob;
    3 but I have hated Esau, and I have (5) made his mountains a desolation and appointed his inheritance for the jackals of the wilderness."
    4 Though Edom says, "We have been (6) beaten down, but we will (7) return and build up the ruins"; thus says the LORD of hosts, "They may (8) build, but I will tear down; and men will call them the wicked territory, and the people toward whom the LORD is indignant (9) forever."
    5 Your eyes will see this and you will say, "(10) The LORD be magnified beyond the border of Israel!" - Malachi 1:1-5 NASB
     
  4. zcostilla

    zcostilla
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2002
    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    0
    Romans 9:13-33 give a pretty clear explanation for this. Especially verses 30-33, which clearly state it a metter of faith. Remember, the Bible is a single plan, with no contradictions. Galatians 3 puts an interesting spin on this when Paul writes "They are not all Israel whic are of Israel" and "Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham"

    zcostilla
     
  5. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2002
    Messages:
    5,178
    Likes Received:
    0
    Romans nine clearly says that ‘Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.' John Calvin has made a grave error that has infected many serious, Christian minds. Note the resemblance of concept in Malachi. The Prophet Malachi concurred with the Apostle Paul that God in His sovereignty did prefer Jacob over Esau, but not in this highest of all concerns the souls of these two men and all of us, the matter of our possibility of entering everlasting life with God.

    Malachi said, ‘Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the Lord; yet I have loved Jacob. How did God hate Esau? The answer, in part, is found in the prophets first chapter verse three. He says, ‘And I hated Esau, in laying waste his mountains and his heritage . . .'

    Edom was hardly a productive land for farming and grazing of sheep as the holy land. (reference to the mountains--in verse 3). God hated Esau's heritage meaning that the Lord preferred Jacob and his posterity to be the lineage through which the ‘Lion of the Tribe of Judah' would be born.{a reference to a lesser heritage--ordained by God for the elder brother-Esau}. Esau was hated or liked much less because God never allowed him to become the founder of one of the twelve tribes of Israel.

    As God has clearly spoken, ‘He has power to make on one vessel unto honor and one to dishonor.' [Romans 9:21].

    God could have hypothetically called only Jews to believe in Him, but it was and still is God's plan to offer His salvation, without partiality or prejudice to all human beings, Gentiles included. [Romans 9:24].

    Do we all agree that all sinners are wicked? If we can agree with this with a positive answer then we are on the correct path to God's truth. Almighty God speaking through the Prophet Ezekiel gives us a lucid understanding of not only the heart and mind of God but also of His eternal love and justice toward all human beings. Now to the point. With all of the clarity and power of His words, He declares to us that ‘(He) has no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live . . . ' [Ezekiel 33:11]. Now you especially who believe in a one covenant theory must agree that God also under the New Covenant has no joy nor does He receive glory because another sinner falls into the pit of Hell when this life is over.

    Augustine had bad theology in 385 A.D. and John Calvin a priest just out of Roman Catholicism systematized four points of Calvinism that are antithetical to God's pure truth.
     
  6. KenH

    KenH
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    32,485
    Likes Received:
    0
    How sad. :( I guess the wonder of God loving Jacob has little interest to men. :confused:

    Ken
    A Spurgeonite
     
  7. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2002
    Messages:
    5,178
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ken Hamilton,

    I have an interest in the fact that God loved Jacob and have a few reasons that I have found as to why He preferred Jacob. The Triune Godhead did not just off the cuff, in eternity past, decree something without thorough reasoning among Themselves.
     
  8. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2002
    Messages:
    3,417
    Likes Received:
    0
    I wonder how the phrase "hated Esau" relates to "FOr whoever does not hate their mother and father cannot follow me" spoken by Christ. I'm wondering if there is a theological significance there.

    Would we not say that hating mom and dad is hyperbole? How does that apply or not apply to this?

    SEC
     
  9. zcostilla

    zcostilla
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2002
    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    0
    God hated Esau because he despised his birthright. This was not only evident in the pottage and blessing incidents, but in the fact that he saw how displeased Isaac would be by marrying from outside theprescribe lineage. God forknew this when he prophesied that the older would serve the younger, but waited to apply judegement until the crime was committed. The Calvanist sees the infinite wisdom of God yet limits hid grace by stating he picks and chooses who will go to Heaven and Hell in spite of verses such as II Pet 3:9. I am not an Armenian, but a simple Bible Believer. I take word such as "world", "all", and "Whosoever" at face value. I know this seems like an overgeneralization, but I've not seen it disproved yet.

    zcostilla
     
  10. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2002
    Messages:
    5,178
    Likes Received:
    0
    zcostella,

    You are correct.

    I have read quite a lot of what John Calvin has written and nothing of what Jacob Arminius wrote. I, like you, could care less. Allowing the Word of God to dovetail leaves us with a clear conscience and no serious theological problems.
     
  11. Peculiar person

    Peculiar person
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2002
    Messages:
    160
    Likes Received:
    0
    While you are thinking about Esau/Edom, read also the book of Obadiah which concerns the final destruction of Edom.
    Also, consider John 8 in which Jesus tells the Pharisees that (although they were called "Jews" - Judeans) they were NOT Abraham's children (Israelites) John 8:39
    The Pharisees themselves admitted they weren't Israelites ("...We be Abraham's seed, and were NEVER IN BONDAGE TO ANY MAN..." John 8:33) Since we know that Israel WAS in bondage to Egypt, these "Jews" claiming to be Abraham's seed were quite probably Esau/Edomites. Not being of the Israelite "sheep," they could not "hear" Christ's words (John8:43, 10:27) and never would follow Him. The few Israelites among the Jewish Pharisees such as Saul (Paul) DID hear His voice and Did follow Him.

    PP
     
  12. Patti Berg

    Patti Berg
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2002
    Messages:
    7
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ray Berrien,

    I have a question regarding your comments on the wicked.

    You wrote:
    Do we all agree that all sinners are wicked? If we can agree with this with a positive answer then we are on the correct path to God's truth.

    I have some difficulty understanding the difference between sinners and the wicked. According to Isaiah chapter 57, sinners will be healed and find peace, but the wicked will not. I understand that the wicked are sinners, but is the converse true also? Are all sinners wicked?

    Isaiah 57: 15 For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.
    16 For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made.
    17 For the iniquity of his covetousness was I wroth, and smote him: I hid me, and was wroth, and he went on frowardly in the way of his heart.
    18 I have seen his ways, and will heal him: I will lead him also, and restore comforts unto him and to his mourners.
    19 I create the fruit of the lips; Peace, peace to him that is far off, and to him that is near, saith the LORD; and I will heal him.
    20 But the wicked are like the troubled sea, when it cannot rest, whose waters cast up mire and dirt.
    21 There is no peace, saith my God, to the wicked.


    Patti.....
     
  13. Sovereign Grace

    Sovereign Grace
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2002
    Messages:
    53
    Likes Received:
    0
    "Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"

    The "death" referred to here is not an eternal death in the lake of fire, but a temporal death. This verse could very well apply to the children of God as well as to the reprobate. However, this verse should not be interpreted strictly and absolutely, for God takes delight in exercising judgment and righteousness and laughs at the calamity of wicked men. This particular exhortation is to the House of Israel, His people.
     
  14. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2001
    Messages:
    6,179
    Likes Received:
    226
    II Chronicles 7: 14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

    This scripture says that they are his people but they are wicked in their ways. Do they cease to be his people because they are wicked?... If so why are they called by his name? If they humble themselves... The first step... and pray... The second step... And seek my face... The third step... They can do all these things but they also must turn from the wickedness that they are doing.

    The Lord says if they do all that then he will hear from Heaven... forgive their sin and will heal their land... If they don't the Lord will chastise them by their disobedience until they do and they shall suffer until they put that wickedness out from among them and repent... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  15. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2002
    Messages:
    3,417
    Likes Received:
    0
    He's talking about the Israelites in the context of destroying or healing their land. If anything, it is to the Arminian's side, which states that what God does is dependent on man (Read about the potter in Jeremiah 17)

    [ October 06, 2002, 05:41 PM: Message edited by: rlvaughn ]
     
  16. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    How do you know this? Or is this one of those places where it is okay to theologize without Scripture?
     
  17. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2002
    Messages:
    5,178
    Likes Received:
    0
    Patti Berg,

    I never heard a discussion about any difference between a sinner and the wicked. Personally, I never studied this area or this possible difference. Sounds like you have studied this area.
     
  18. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2002
    Messages:
    5,178
    Likes Received:
    0
    Pastor Larry,

    In fact, God has always known who He would grant everlasting life with Himself. I am sure Ephesians 1:4 is one of your elevated verses of the New Testament. It is His good pleasure always to give eternal life to all who call on He who provided spiritual benefits on the middle Cross, called Calvary.
     
  19. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2001
    Messages:
    5,140
    Likes Received:
    25
    If a reply is right under the post to which you are replying, it's not necessary to quote the entire post just to make a few comments. Thanks.
     
  20. Patti Berg

    Patti Berg
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2002
    Messages:
    7
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ray Berrian,

    After reading Isaiah 57, I have only just asked God this question myself. I was wondering if perhaps you or anyone else on this forum find a distinction between the sinner and the wicked. There is a distinction made in this chapter of Isaiah between the frowardly whom God will heal and the wicked who will find no peace.

    Patti.....
     

Share This Page

Loading...