James 5:16

Discussion in 'Bible Versions/Translations' started by Revmitchell, Mar 2, 2016.

  1. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
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    The ESV renders it:

    Jas 5:16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working.


    The KJV renders it:

    Jas 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.


    When the words "effective" and "fervent" are taken out of the ESV passage it does in fact change the verse and its meaning. It takes out the manner in which prayer was to be done.

    Was this appropriate? How do we know?
     
  2. Greektim

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    "effectual" and "fervent" are the equivalent of "great power" and "as it is working". So the ESV doesn't take it out. It translates it differently.

    Actually, the ESV does a better job of maintaining the word order. The words in questions were at the end of the sentence (less emphasis). But the KJV moved them towards the beginning as if that is the main thrust. So in this case, as in most cases, the ESV is better.
     
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  3. Jerome

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    Huh?:

    KJB
    The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

    ESV
    The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working.
     
  4. TCassidy

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    "Effectual" = "ενεργουμενη" to work (effectually or fervently).

    [Edited for clarification]
     
    #4 TCassidy, Mar 2, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2016
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  5. Jerome

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    OK, what does "Fervent" = ?
     
    #5 Jerome, Mar 2, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2016
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  6. Greektim

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    They supplied it to suite the idea I suppose.

    Just to clarify, I think the "availeth much" matches "has great power" of the ESV. And the "effectual fervent" matches the "as it is working".

    I may have jumped the gun on trying to understand how the KJV translated what they did. But they still moved the Gr work ενεργουμενη to the beginning of the sentence even though it was at the end (less emphasis). The KJV has it at the beginning.
     
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  7. TCassidy

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    Fervent and effectual are both translations of ενεργουμενη. It is a case where two English words were used to translate a single Greek word.

    Not at all unusual. In fact, in the New Testament, as many as five English words have been used to translate a single Greek word. :)
     
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  8. Greektim

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    To answer the questions here: Yes it was appropriate. The ESV renders it better and more accurately. We know by examining the Greek.

    PS-Part of this is flawed unless you make the KJV the standard. The ESV didn't take anything out of the passage that was not there in the first place. Rather, we could ask why the KJV felt it necessary to amplify a simple word (where we get our word "energize") to "effectual fervent"?
     
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  9. Jerome

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    Thank you for 'clarifying'.
     
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  10. Revmitchell

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    So you believe what the KJV did was inappropriate?
     
  11. Rippon

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    Don't tell that to Van --he will not stand for that in his novel world of translation. ;-)
     
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  12. Greektim

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    Only insofar as you place so much emphasis on those words so as to hold up your view that this verse and this particular translation explains "the manner in which prayer was to be done". I think the ESV renders the original more accurately than the KJV.
     
  13. Revmitchell

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    Hey look! A thread where no one got called any names and no one has been given a dumb rating.
     
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  14. Jerome

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    I just had to chuckle when I saw the "as in most cases better" ESV using "fervent" in the very next verse:

    KJB v.17
    Elias...prayed earnestly that it might not rain

    ESV v.17
    Elijah...prayed fervently that it might not rain
     
  15. Greektim

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    Different word used. What are you chuckling about?
     
  16. Van

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    The effective prayer of a righteous person accomplishes much.

    As translated above the assertion says little. If a prayer accomplishes much would it not have to be effective? How about a prayer according to the will of God accomplishes much? The idea being a "righteous person" would pray in the will of God.
     

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