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Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Grasshopper, Feb 11, 2010.
again. Actually Caner makes a fool of himself.
James White totally misrepresents what non-cals believe. Christ did die for the Muslim and the Jew and and the Mormon and every other person on earth.
Yes, he did!
If James White is a calvinist he is promoting a flase doctrine.
? What statement are you referring to? White is well aware non-cals believe what you stated. He's debated them numerous times. But this really was more about Ergun Caner and his comments than a cal/non cal debate.
I'm watching the video right now and I'm fascinated by the debate between White and the Muslim (Ally). The Muslim truly does sound like a Jesus Seminar fellow as James says. What I caught that surprised me was that the Muslim guy referred to the "Q" and it's sayings as if it were a certified document. If I'm not mistaken, isn't Q an assumed document from liberals to make it appear that the gospel writers copied from the same source? If so, why didn't James pounce on him for that?
What I got from this video is simply James White picking a fight with Caner. I would love to see this debate if it ever happens. Of course I agree with Dr. White, but I still feel uneasy when Calvinists or Reformed apologists attack other Christians when they make claims like Caner did. As a Calvinist I'm sure Dr. White agrees that we must evangelize as if all men can be saved, for we don't know who are the elect and I'm hoping Caner was meaning this when he stated God loves all Muslims. I maybe be way off here, please reply back and set me straight if so. :type:
I admit that Dr. James White is a brilliant debater. But he continues to rub me the wrong way.
Perhaps it's me.
Yes, Mr. White does on various issues, mostly however it is when he is trying to put them or certain views/doctrines down or in a negitive light.
This isn't what he 'typically' does but he has been known to it.
And yes, I agree with you concerning your second statement as well.
No, I have to agree as well.
Now I might not agree with a few of his views yet I will also agree he is a brilliant debater but... well, let's just leave it at that.
I don't want to hijack this post into a Calvinist argument so if I'm out of line please stop me.
Amy, I have to ask from the Calvinist position, "If Jesus died for everyone, then for those who die refusing the gospel was His death insufficient, was it not powerful enough? That is how the Calvinist would ask this." What say you?
I'm not Amy and she can answer for herself, as for me...
His death, in and of itself (IOW - apart from faith), doesn't save anyone therefore it isn't His death that is insuffient for salvation. Salvation is by or through faith and it is 'by faith' that His propitiation is applied to men. (Rom 3:25)
Therefore His death is suffient for all but efficient only toward those who believe, ie..His elect.
I think James White is technically "Reformed Theology" which is more or less modified Calvinism.
He can rub me the wrong way also on a few of the finer points, but I love watching him debate Muslims though :laugh:
Acatully modified Calvinism is more often understood as refering 4 pointer (No "L"). James White doesn't quite fall into that catagory :laugh:
Yes! It's like some of the political pundits. I may agree with what they say, but the way they say it makes me want to scream!
I've been interested in doing some extension studies at LBTS, however I tend to lean towards a Calvinistic soteriology (but not rabidly so). Over the last couple of days I've been looking through the many blog posts, videos, papers, etc. put out by Dr. Caner, Dr. Towns, and Dr. Falwell of Liberty, as well as Dr. White, Dr. Ascol, and others on the Reformed Baptist side, and the truth is... both sides rub me the wrong way on certain points, and make me want to scream!
To some degree, I think White was a bit too harsh on Caner. No Caner does not engage in the type of debates that White does, however that does not mean Caner is lying. Caner's definition of a debate is clearly different from White's or mine. While I do not believe Caner engages in the type of debates he should engage in I also do not believe he is a liar. He is a very good speaker and does a good job relating to the youth. I have heard him speak in person and I promise you he is very good at what he does. However he is not the theological expert one would expect from a seminary president.
I have read White's book, The Potter's Freedom. In it, White disagrees with this statement. I regard him as a true Calvinist, but I definitely disagree with him.
"His death, in and of itself (IOW - apart from faith), doesn't save anyone therefore it isn't His death that is insuffient for salvation"
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his son...
By His knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many for (because) he shall bear their iniquities.
By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And ever priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: but this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; from henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. For (because) by one offering he hath perfect for ever them that are sanctified.
For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
And there are a whole lot more verses that disprove the idea that Jesus didn't really put away sin, or save anyone, by His death on the cross.
The Debating Calvinism book where James White and Dave Hunt go at it was a pretty good read.
Sorry, there is NO biblical doctrine of eternal salvation apart/seperate from faith Relating that statement to this thread - James White would have a field day with that one :smilewinkgrin:
Exactly! My feelings as well.