Japan mulls pre-emptive strike against N Korea

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Ben W, Jul 11, 2006.

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  1. Ben W

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    This is getting alot of media coverage here, I think that people underestimate Japans military capacity at their own peril. Considering the technology advances that have come out of Japan, I have no doubt they would give North Korea more than a bloody nose if they decided that them firing missiles over their territory was an act of war!


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    Japan mulls pre-emptive strike against N Korea

    By N America correspondent Michael Rowland & Reuters

    Japan has flagged the option of a pre-emptive strike against North Korea's missile sites to prevent more launches.

    They believe such an attack would be within Japan's constitutional right of self-defence.

    But military analysts doubt Japan has the resources or the constitutional power to carry out such a mission.

    Meanwhile the United Nations (UN) Security Council has delayed voting on a resolution calling for sanctions against North Korea.

    The United States Ambassador to the UN, John Bolton, says this will allow more time for China to exert its influence on North Korea and encourage the Pyongyang regime to return to the negotiating table.

    "We will not press for a vote today, we will re-evaluate on a daily basis whether to proceed," he said.

    Continued -

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200607/s1683336.htm
     
  2. fromtheright

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    The sanctions being considered include a ban on the export of missile technology to North Korea. China opposes such sanctions, obviously, because they are the primary source of such technology. Which makes me wonder about all those who insist that it is in China's interest to rein North Korea in, that they are a reliable "partner" in the Six Party Talks. Let's see: China exports missile technology to NK, NK fires missiles into the Sea of Japan, and then we expect China to be helpful in reining in "the crazy Kim Il Jong"? If they seriously wanted to preserve peace on the peninsula then they should quit selling/giving the technology that fuels such crises.
     
  3. billwald

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    Has Japan amended its constitution to put it back in the war business or is going to follow the example of the USofA and ignore it?
     
  4. fromtheright

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    Japan hasn't amended its constitution but has been considering it for a while in light of the growing military capabilities and territorial claims of China.

    Any particular examples of the U.S.'s ignoring of the Constitution, bill?
     
  5. Eliyahu

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    Ben W, From the Right,
    Often I have agreed with you in many thoughts on the politics. But there may be a big gap between you guys and me on this topic.

    First of all, I must tell you that I am a Korean who knows quite well about the local situation and history there. There are big, big, and extremely wrong, misunderstandings on the local situations there.
    I would summarize the things shortly as follows:

    1) I don't support NK at all, nor condone their dangerous war game. They are simply wrong and harmful to the international society.
    2) There are many things which are not reported in US, Canada and other countries thru news media, which I wonder very much but believe all human beings are often blinded as NK people are blinded as well.
    3) Now let's start about the Pre-emptive Attack against NK by Japan.
    What will be the reaction by NK ?
    NK doesn't have to NUke Japan. Japan has 54 big Nuke Power plants for themselves. NK will strike some of them and that will be very much enough to drive Japan into panic. Moreover thousands of NK pilots are well determinded to die for their country by becoming a Suicide Bomber Aircrafts carrying NUke into Tokyo. Then there will be another Mushroom soaring out of Tokyo. Among 7 missiles, 1 was Dae-Po Dong supposed to reach Hawaii, 3 were Scud, 3 were Ro-Dong. Ro-Dong missile can reach Tokyo without problem. NK improved Scud missile very much and therefore IRan buys from them. Even Scud can reach West coast of Japan. This is why Japanese people of West Coast appealed their government to cancel the plan of Pre-Emptive attack on NK. 160 medium distance missiles are quite ready to attack Japan within 1-3 hours, while Dae-Po-Dong requires 3 weeks for filling the fuel.
    Isn't this enough for you to understand about the Pre-emptive Attack ?
    Remember that 54 Nuke Power plants are very much enough to blow out the whole Japan. Japanese will be completely cleansed away from the islands only by their own Atomic Power plants.

    4) Why doesn't US army attack NK ?
    If US attack NK, then NK will react too. US army near the border between NK and South Korea will be attacked by NK missiles and artillery. NK field artillery is terrible and can destroy US facilities quickly. Thousands of US army will be killed by NK artillery. NK military facilities are mostly undergrounded.
    Is USA ready to sacrifice thousands of GI's there?

    5) Most of the Information on NK and Japan relationship has been filtered by the views of Japanese. The Western world doesn't know about the truth. For example, North American News media made a big report on the kidnapping of 13 Japanese girls by NK agents.
    I am very sure that NK did such behavior.
    But do you know that Japanese government kidnapped more than 200,000 girls up to 300,000 during the Wordl War II ? they captured them and made them as sex slaves during the war. In the daytime, they had to wash the clothes of the Japanese soldiers, in the night they were forced to serve 10 soldiers as sex slaves. My mother gave me the vivid testimony about her escape from the police chase. Japanese police and Korean police under the commandment of Japanese government hunted the girls from the high schools and elementary schools every day.
    Japanese government never apologized, nor compensated to them, but all the time denied. However, there are plenty of witnesses and testimonies, and proofs. I have several photos of the pregnant girls during WWII as sex slaves.
    What about the men laborers ? Japan kidnapped more than 500,000 Koreans during the WWII and forced them work in the coal mines, many of them died there miserably.
    Japanese took the properties of the Korean civilians without compensation during their colonization.
    Japanese government forced Christians of Korea to bow down toward the East. If they refused it, they were tortured and killed. Many pastors were martyred during the Japanese ruling.
    Japanese forced Koreans to change their family names into Japanese style. There are much more atrocities conducted by Japanese. Thousands of Koreans were killed when they pursued the independance.
    What did Japan compensate to Koreans?
    300 million USD was paid to South Korea during 1966-1971 period, which was less than 3/4 of Gold price which Japanese exploited from Korea.

    What did Japanese pay to NK ? Nothing, no penny so far.
    There is a big difference between Germany and Japan. Germany admitted their sins and compensated to Israel repeatedly again and again. Japanese partly admitted their criminal but often denied them whenever the compensation issues arise.

    6) Japan is a nice country and therefore Japanese are Christians bounding for Heaven, and North Korea is a bad country and their people are going to the Hell. This is non-sense.
    Japan has much less than 1% so-called Christian including Catholic, the true christians may be much fewer. Pyong Yang was called Jerusalem in East Asia during 1900-1945 period. 80% of Korean Christians were concentrated in Pyong Yang area, The great grand father of Kim, Jeong Il, grand father of KIm, IlSung was a Presbyterian Pastor, whose salvation I don't know. But I met the step-brother of Kim, Jeong Il and he preached the gospel apparently who is now in SK. Many of NK Christians moved down to SK during the Korean War and then immigrated to Los Angeles area since 1970's where there are about 2 million Koreans now.
    Remember the most of the Japanese are idol worshippers, Shinto which is partly Buddhism mixed with Confucianism.

    7) USA helped South Korea a lot during the Korean War but these days SK betrays such Grace from USA.
    Korea was never divided during the past 1300 years before WWII.
    Korea was not a War Criminal country but Japan was the War Criminal country. However, USA didn't want to share Japan with Russia after the war. During the WWII, Japan and US had the fierce battle each other since Pearl Harbor Attack by Japanese. US was losing too many lives in the Pacific islands, therefore wanted Russia declare the War with Japan, but Russia had the Non-Invasion Treaty with Japan then. US persuaded Russia a lot, then Russia asked US to share Japan each other. US thought Japan was too good to share with Russia. Therefore US suggested Russia to share Korea by dividing it into 2 pieces along 38 parallel.
    This was agreed between Roosevelt and Stalin in February 1945, at Yalta Conference.

    This caused a lot of tragedy and became the fundamental reason for the Korean War.
    To the eyes of the most Koreans, US was the very person which caused the division of Korea and Korean War since the US secretary of State, Atheson ( spelling may not be correct) declared Korea is outside of their defense line and this signaled NK that you may take SK.
    Thereafter US changed the policy again, then involved in the Korean War.
    4 million Koreans died during the war for nothing.

    Japanese often say " Luckily, there broke out the Korean War, by which we could recover from the WWII quickly. "

    7) Colonization by Japan, start of the tragedy.
    In 1905 there was a War between Russia and Japan and the long time navigated Russian fleet was defeated by Japanese. Then US and Japan agreed that Japan take Korea, US take Philippines as their colonies. This resulted in all the Christian missionaries of USA had to leave from Korea, in Pearl Harbor Attack. The agreement was made between William Taft and Katsura of Japan in 1905 during Theodore Roosevel presidency.

    8) After the WWII, even though there were many Resistance groups of Koreans during the War, US government didn't recognize them as a partner. Instead US army hired the Koreans who served Japanese and worked under Japanese government who were considered as traitors by the normal Koreans. So, US ignored the Patriotic people of Korea completely while NK rooted out such traitors.

    9) After WWII, US didn't want Japan becoming too weak during the Cold War and therefore Japan didn't suffer very much even though it was the War Criminal country. Instead, Korea has suffered a lot even today as a divided nation. During the Cold War, SK was on the front line with Communist NK, for the free world. They have spent more than 6% of GNP for the defense every year, paying 2 Billion US Dollars to the US Forces in Korea. US forces in Korea don't pay for Electricity, nor for Water, nor for buildings etc.

    10) USA didn's clear the issues on the territory between Japan and Korea, about so-called LianKur Island, currently occupied by Koreans. There are plenty of historical records supporting the ownership of it belonging to Korea, but USA has been silent considering the relationship with Japan.

    11) Most of the News Media reported that 7 missiles dropped into Sea of Japan, which sounds like NK attacked Sea of Japan.
    That is is called East Sea by Koreans. That sea is shared by between Russia, North Korea, South Korea, Japan, It is not the sea belonging to any specific country. Many old maps showed East Sea or Sea of Coree, only a few show Sea of Japan. However, Japan has become much more powerful since it is exposed more to the ocean geographically and accepted Western culture earlier, then many countries report it as if it were a part of Japan.

    12) What is wrong with Bush Administration ?
    It was USA, not the North Korea that violated Geneva Treaty of 1994
    According to the agreement USA was supposed to supply the fuel until 6 nations build up the Light-Water Reactor Power Plant in NK. SK paid 70% of the cost, Japan 20%, USA was supposed to supply the Diesel oil, but cancelled it during Bush admin. There is a possiblity that NK would have violated it even though USA kept the promise.
    The fundamental problem started from Harry Truman government when he refused the bombing Manchuria and fired Admiral Douglas McArthur. Since then USA policy fluctuated to and fro, and Clinton government was so soft in 1994. Now it is too late to take so strong action enough. Bush Admin didn't have much option to take.
     
  6. LadyEagle

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    Thank you, Eliyahu, for posting this history with a first hand knowledge.

    Here is some more interesting information about Japan and the atrocities committed during WW2 on the Chinese for those who are interested.

    http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/NanjingMassacre/NM.html

    http://www.cnd.org/njmassacre/

    You have also confirmed my recent discovery that the US government has been corrupt for decades as to our foreign policy. The corruption in the US government is not a new anomaly, which I thought.

    That the Western media have covered up these things is also appalling. Japan has essentially gotten a free pass from the world for atrocities committed during WW2. And so have our leaders.
     
  7. pinoybaptist

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    I am not trying to pick a quarrel with Eliyahu, but I would like to say that most of those who invaded the Philippines were Korean conscripts serving under the Japanese Imperial Army.
    Many Filipinas were made comfort women for these composite Japanes/Korean troops, too.
    In addition, it was Korean conscripts who were most cruel during that invasion in my country.
    To retaliate against deaths and damages caused by Filipino guerillas, they would line up the townspeople in the town plaza, machine gun them without discrimnation, snatch babies from their mothers, and either smash their heads against walls, or throw them up into the air and catch them with bayonets fixed on rifles.
    My elder brother almost got skewered that way, had it not been for the intervention of a Jap officer who was giving my aunt, single at the time, the 'beautiful eyes'.
    So, you see, some Koreans were not exactly lily white, either.
    Not that I am siding with Japan, just saying that atrocities were equally shared.
    It is true, however, that between Japan and Korea, the latter is the more Christianized country.
    It has a very large Baptist and Presbyterian population in proportion to its Buddhists and Shintoists.
    Correct me if I am wrong.
    It is my understanding that over at Virginia, there is a Korean "non-denominational" church with at least 5000 membership, all of whom faithfully come to church every Sunday.
     
  8. Eliyahu

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    I could not post all the words in the previous post as it was too long. This is why I have refrained from posting my thoughts in the past

    1. Many people misunderstand that NK gets the technology from China and parts of missiles from China. But the information shared among the Koreans are different.
    NK gets the 80% key parts of missiles from Japan, and the rest from their own development. NK received the Scud missiles from Russia and then they copied them and sold them to Iran during Irak-Iran War in 1981-1988. During that war, NK analyzed the missiles very much, and improved them quite a lot, developped the Ro-Dong missiles which have longer distance range.

    2. Many people think NK will surrender if China takes the action against NK.
    This is non-sense as they are ignorant about the history of Korea. Korea has been independant throughout the history of East Asia. On the contrary, China was colonized by other nations for about 800 years during the past 2000 years. The last kingdom of China was Ching Dynasty, which was NOT Chinese. Ching dynasty was established by Manchurian, who were called Post-Keum. Manchurian language is almost extinct now but some people in Manchuria still speak. These days China try to preserve the language. That Manchurian language is closer to Korean, than to Chinese, because it belongs to Ural-Altai language while Chinese belongs to China-Tibet language.
    The Ching dynasty started from around 1610 AD and ended in 1911. In the beginning both China( Ming dynasty) and Korea were allies against this Ching dynasty in Manchuria which was a small country then. But both Chinese Ming dynasty and Korean dynasty surrendered to them.
    The relationship between Ching and Korea was not more than Allies. Koreans paid the tributes to Ching but Ching rewarded them with their products. So, there were trades between 2 countries 4 times a year.
    In Japan there are many US troops stationed there and there is much trade between 2 countries. Therefore is Japan a colony of USA now ? No.
    Even during 1610-1910 there was no army of China residing in Korea. Korea had its own diplomacy and sovereignty.
    China was ruled by Mongolians during 1206-1380 AD and the Northern part of China was ruled by Rayo which was West Manchurian during 946-1115 AD, then by East Manchurian, Keum until Mongolian took over the whole China in 1206AD. This Rayo seems to have been a Christian country, mainly Nestorians. There were some more time which China suffered from as a colony of Mongolians and that's why they built Great Walls.
    Korea was colonized by Mongolian for 98 years and then 35 years by Japanese during 1910-1945.
    Koreans didn't accept the pressure by Chinese throughout the history, even though there were invasions by Manchurians and Mongolians. Chinese called Koreans Prosperous Country across the Sea, without invading China.
    One of the reasons why US failed in diplomacy with Korea is because they misunderstand that NK might be controlled by China, which has never come true so far.

    3. Koreans take much pride in their history, culture, and in their nation.
    This is mostly because they feel they are not evaluated properly by the international community. Between Japan and Korea there was a huge gap in the culture. Until 1592 AD when Japanese invaded Korea, Japanese didn't know how to make ceramics as American Indians didn't know make ceramic dishes and bowls. So, the most Japanese ate in the wooden bowls and in bamboo bowls, only the royal families ate in the ceramic bowls. When they invaded Korea during the war of 1592-1598, they were surprised to see even the poor people ate in the ceramic bowls and ceramic dishes in Korea and therefore they captured hundreds of potters from Korea and that's how Japanese have the current ceramic industry now, which cannot be deniable by anyone.
    It tells many things about the cultural levels of 2 countries before 1600 AD.
    Koreans had developed beautiful ceramics since 10 c AD, and the printing technology around 1000 AD (wooden printing system), metal printing system around 1200AD, 250 years earlier than Gutenberg in Germany, for the fisrt time in the world recognized by UNESCO, developed their own phonetic Alphabet as they found the problem with Chinese letters.
    Japanese started to accept the culture from 16 c, as they are more exposed to the ocean while Korea was secluded, and Portuguese Catholic Jesuites taught Japanese how to make guns, then invaded Korea in 1592 saying that they are going to China and Korea should give the way for it, which immitated the Words of God in Numbers 21:22. Koreans responded to them that they can go to China directly if they want so and there is no reason to land into Korea. Koreans had no gun but some primitive canons. However, Koreans defeated them in the sea battle very well. They developed Steel claded warships ( at that time, people thought steel ships would sink down) and utilized the tides between the islands very well. Hundreds of Japanese warships were destroyed by 12 ships of Koreans.
    Koreans are very much proud of this history.
    Since 1857-1858, US Admiral Matthew Clabraith Perry ( a Jewish) opened Japanese seaports, many Jews assisted Japan for cotton spinning factories, establishing Navy, Tokyo University, Labor union etc. On the other hand Korea was secluded and refused the gospels, even though there might have been Christian era in Korea during 200 AD-1100 AD.
    So, the whole situation in the relationship between Japan and Korea was changed greatly as Japan advanced with European, American techologies since 1868 ( Meiji Yushin- the revolution in Japan).
    But the Korean people have never thought they are behind Japan as they understand many Japanese were just pirates plundering the sea-coast of Korea, falling behind Korea in the culture very much.

    4. Japanese King visited Korea in 2001 and said that I am a Korean because my ancestors were from Korea. At that News conference, there were hundreds of Japanese reporters, but none of them reported these words, which shows Japanese are very well united automatically in hiding the truth.

    5. Koreans suffered a lot in the past and I believe that it was because they refused Jesus Christ and were indulged in Confucianism. During the Korean War they lost 4 million lives. But from the ashes they started to have Christian beliefs and thereby economic success as Holocaust brought the Establishment of Israel and Messianic Jews for Israel.
    Korea is the country which has made the fastest economic growth throughout the world during the past 40 years. They started from nothing, from ashes.
    Many people are stingy to admit that it was by virtue of the grace of God thru their faith. Outside North America Korea may be the only or one of a few countries where Protestants outnumbers Catholics, where the most number of Bibles are sold. My information is that just over 5 million bibles are sold in USA per year, while 1.8 million Bibles are sold in South Korea, which means less than 2 Bibles per 100 people are sold in USA, while 4 Bibles per 100 people are sold in Korea per annum. Korea dispatches many missionaries to Africa and to other nations.

    6. I am very sure that God knows the whole history far more accurately than I stated and He will recompense them as long as they continue to repent from their sins. I notice the American text books about the East Asian history are far away from the truth. God may use this country as a leverage to wake up Israelites to accept their Masiach ( Messiah).

    7. Koreans don't want the war again which will give another happiness to the Japanese since Japanese often said "Fortunately to Japanese there broke out the Korean War, which brought the rapid recovery and growth after WWII" Koreans believe that all the tragedy of theirs started from Japanese colonization and believe that every act of Japanese will be judged by God, even though they never know how to repent.

    In today's war, even the feeble countries can devastate the counter part of the war quite a lot. And Seoul is oinly 30 miles away from the border. If Japan wants to make Pre-emptive Attack, then there will be the war between Japan and NK, please let South Korea stay away from the War. This is the wish from SK. But US have the military bases in SK. NK assertains that they cannot but attack SK as long as US launches the attacks from the bases inside SK. These days US realize that they are too much vulnerable to NK attacks and therefore planed to relocate their bases to the south. US demanded SK to pay for the whole cost for the relocation, which is estimated to be more than 10 Billion USD. There was a struggle by the protestors, but SK government agreed to pay them all.
    Many Koreans ask what for we have US army in our soils even though there are some disputes and disagreements among SK people.
    Many Americans do not know that US stationed their forces for their benefits and interest at the cost of Korean.
    Every month US forces rape and kill Korean girls but none of the criminals have been indicted during the past 5 decades. They are privileged to rape the girls. To Americans, the raping foreigners is not a crime but a sports as none of the US news media reports about such ugly, brutal aspects of US army. These days US start to realize the seriousness of such problem with their army as it happened in Iraq.

    8. I was shocked to see the photo of a Korean girl killed by US army, after raping, having the peak of an umbrella stuck into her vgina. I imagined how much painful pain she should have suffered from. But the soldier was freed as the judge declared there is no enough evidence against him.
    This type of problem is the most serious complaints from Koreans. Most of them feel US better than any other neighboring countries but when this matter arises, they start to say that we don't need such rapists from America! and CNN do not report such facts.
     
  9. LadyEagle

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    This is true. I have read about this. There is also a slave trade and there was an incident in the Warren Ohio area involving a prostitute (victim of sex trade from US military) that had been shipped over to the US from South Korea and it was in the local papers. This is a can of worms which has been hidden from the American public.

    I would like to point out that South Korea has asked the US military to leave - there were protests and demonstrations with thousands of people wanting the US to leave. There is no good reason why the US has had troops stationed in SK for decades except for money.

    Your comments are very interesting and informative and I thank you for them. I would also like to point out, on comments about the Philippins, however, that Philippines also fought with US troops during WW2 and some were brutalized and killed during the Bataan Death March. Filipinos must have been forced to choose sides on which to fight during WW2.

    The whole situation is very tangled and US foreign policy has been dollar driven for decades, which makes me very sad. Some day, perhaps, the Lord will allow us to see world history from His viewpoint and then we will all know the truth.

    I do know that in the Book of Revelation, it says the Nations will be judged. The US will be judged also and much accountability and blood is on the hands of world leaders throughout the ages.
     
    #9 LadyEagle, Jul 12, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 12, 2006
  10. Eliyahu

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    Pinoy, thanks to your comment.
    My understanding is that Japanese troops were numbered over 2 million during the War, reaching 3 million sometimes. Koreans were over 200,000 most of whom were drafted from the schools by the Japanese government. I am sure that Koreans obeyed the commandments by the Japanese. When they invaded China, the Korean troops belonging to Japanese must have obeyed and killed Chinese cruelly. They consisted of ca. 10% Japanese army and invaded into Burma, Indonesia, Thailand, Philippines. I am sure that they did the same thing as Jap' Soldiers did. They took even the Korean girls brought by Japanese there as well.
    If anyone is strictly under the control of such commandment no one can escape from such situation, unless someone is extremely observing the Words of God. Even if Filippinos were drafted by Jap's at that time they would have done the same thing if they went to other countries like Burma or Indonesia.
    Still in the Korean army, there are some residues of Japanese culture, beating the soldiers etc.

    But, what I would be concerned about more is that there are many wicked businessmen among Koreans operating the entertainment business in Korea these days. They hire girls from Philippines, from Russia and Thailand for the comfort of US army based in SK. You can imagine a lot of problems there, exploiting the girls.
    In Vietnamese War, Koreans showed their cruelty as well. They didn't have do so, but did there.
    You may notice the personality of Koreans in the sports. They are fierce and tough.
    Yes, they should take their portion of responsibility. The portion must be taken by Koreans as well.
    Every one must show their innocence or honesty thru their behavior not by words.

    The situation of Koreans after the Korean War was terrible, the war left them nothinng but the ashes. Koreans were much more miserable than Philippinos but today their situation is totally different. Their income level may be more than 12 times of Chinese, or 20 times of Philippinos.
    India anounced it exported 80 Billion USD during 2005 which was a big growth compared to the previous year. SK made 280 Billion USD during the same period. Moreover India made deficit from the trade but SK makes surplus, even though SK have scarce natural resources. Last month SK reported the export over 28 Billion USD only for the month June. South Korean trade volume of Import and Export is bigger than the total of 36 countries of South America, the economy of SK is bigger than that of Russia, that of India.
    In the airplane an Indian student were together with Israelite students one of whom was a Rabbi. He asked me what was the factor for the success of Koreans in economic field. I didn't hesitate to say that Religion worked so much importantly there. He refused to accept my point, then I said " if the main religion of the society teaches the laziness, nihilism, or terrorism, Absudity of the Idol worship, there will be no success, but if it teaches Diligence, Reasonable thoughts, and especially Truth of the Bible, then the society grows fast.
    Philippines and South America are dominated by Catholic, but if they accept the True Christianity, they will start to be blessed by God. God is responsible for that as long as they accept the Truth of Christ.
    I am sure that God will use Koreans as the leverage to stimulate Israelites to accept their Messiah.
     
  11. Eliyahu

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    LE,
    thank you very much for your comments.
    Again I am very sure that God will use Korea as a leverage to stimulate Israel as the time of End is approaching. I don't say this because I mean only Israel is hardheaded. All human nature is so wicked. If the messiah had come to Koreans or to English people, He may have been killed even before he had preached the gospels, He may have been killed even before hanging on the tree, without the justice of the court. All human beings are so wicked and stub-born. Moreover, since Israel have had the Law, they would feel that if they departed from it, they would become rebellious against God.
    Israel may notice the invisible hands of God when they see Koreans navigate and dodge thru the powerful countries surrounding them, and the NK people.

    I am not very much sympathetic with starving people of NK, as they may be the descendants of those who invaded SK during the Korean War, but when we can help them, yes I would help them. Until then I would leave everything unto the hands of God.

    Remember that US has been better than any other countries, in the War and in the Peace. I would not ciriticise US too much. All human natures are wicked and news media are controlled invisibly by some bad powers as we read Ephesians 6:12. If any other countries seize the power as much as US currently have, they would be much worse than US. This is the reality of the human society.
     
    #11 Eliyahu, Jul 12, 2006
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2006
  12. fromtheright

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    Eliyahu,

    I'm not sure what you were disagreeing with in my post.

    But a few replies to your first post:

    (3) I certainly don't disagree with you about the risks of a pre-emptive attack by Japan and I hope they don't do it because of those very risks but there is no doubt that Korea firing missiles into Japanese territory is an act of war and Japan is certainly within their rights to respond.

    (5) No, I wasn't aware that the Japanese had kidnapped Koreans during WWII. They committed other atrocities during WWII including cruel treatment, atrocities and biological experiments on Americans captured. Does that mean the U.S. would be justified in going to Japan and kidnapping people?

    (6)
    It is a nonsensical comparison that I have never heard anyone make. What is true is that the Japanese government has become democratic and that the North Korean is a brutal Stalinist dictatorship.
    It's too bad the two Kim's didn't listen because they are both animals.

    (7) Your argument that the U.S. is to blame for the Korean War is naive at best, and foolish, to put it mildly. North Korean Communists invaded South Korea, then followed by China. I'm sure you know Korean history well enough to know the atrocities perpetrated by the Communists as they came into South Korea and as they took power in North Korea.

    (8)
    Yeah, real benign, patriotic saviors, those North Koreans.

    (9)
    Pardon my impudence but being the tripline for South Korean freedom seems like some payment to me. Not to mention American lives that have been lost since the Korean War, near the DMZ, that not many Americans realize and you conveniently ignore. That's Americans on the front line.

    (10)
    Again, NK or SK? Please clarify.

    (12)
    'Sorry, but here you sound like an apologist for North Korea. Please explain if I misunderstood you. It was North Korea who violated the agreement, and they admitted it, when inspectors caught them. That is when North Korea declared they were abandoning the Agreed Framework. The Agreed Framework included providing the nuke plants as you stated. The U.S. made moves to do so but North Korea was even obstructionist in cooperating on the building and location. The U.S. refused to abide by that agreement once North Korea puled out of the Agreement. Further, the U.S. did in fact ship oil to NK as part of that Framework until NK backed out.
    And, wait a minute, "USA kept the promise" or USA violated the Geneva Treaty of 1994"? Which?


    And to your second post:

    (1) China has provided booster technology to North Korea. In the early 80's they provided reverse engineering of the SCUD-B to NK in the areas of engine design, metallurgy and airframe technology. In 1988-1991, a reported 230 military officials and weapons specialists traveled to Yinchuan, China to learn “nuclear testing technology” and “missile flight testing technology”. In February 1994, US satellites detected new “missile simulator” in Pyongyang. The mock-up appeared to be a two-stage missile with the first stage resembling the Chinese CSS-2. China denies providing North Korea with advanced missile technology. (Source: www.nti.org/e_research/profiles/NK/Missile/66.html)

    (2) As to your second point, we can only speculate, but the history you provided is certainly helpful perspective. Nothing I said in my earlier posts would suggest disagreement. Another perspective that can't be ignored, however, is the massive starvation in NK and the fact that many North Koreans have gone into and sought to go into China for relief of their starvation.

    (4) Huh?

    (5)
    As to fastest economic growth, that's South Korea, not the entire peninsula.

    (6)
    Specifics?

    (7)
    Gosh, we're there to defend South Korea. Imagine the gall of having South Korea pay for that! :rolleyes:

    (8)
    Maybe you don't get out much, but this was certainly reported here.


    And from your last post:

    Pretty brutal.
     
    #12 fromtheright, Jul 12, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 12, 2006
  13. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle
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    I would like to expound on my post. I am ashamed of some of the things my US government does and has done, but your comment is correct - we have, with all our faults, failures, and corruption, been better than most would have been.

    I would also like to point out that there are many North Korean Christians, blood bought and blood washed, who are undergoing much persecution in North Korea AND China. Christians all over the world are being persecuted and yet we hear little if anything about it in the news media. As far as I know, Christians are not being persecuted in Japan or South Korea or the Philippines (I could be wrong), and if that is the case, it is because of the strong US presence in those countries as a contributing factor for freedom. As an aside, some Japanese people claim to be descendents of Jews.
     
  14. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu
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    The following comments clarify further the differences, while I could notice the difference in the expected result of Pre-Emptive Attacks, Supply of the parts from Japan.

    Nope. I said I never condone such behavior but pointed out that "Strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel" (Mt 23: 24)

    of course there is such difference.
    I don't disagree.

    US is very much responsible for the division of Korea into 2 pieces as they divided it at the Yalta conference Feb 1945. If there was no division of Korea there would have happened no Korean War. US ignored the importance of one nation's unity and was ignorant about the history. US may realize it if they suffer the same cruelty in the future. Even Japanese didn't divide Korea then suddenly US divided it into 2 pieces. Many families had to be split due to the split of the country. US declared the their defense line is Japan and Taiwan, which signaled NK may take the south. Then suddenly they realized that the next will become Japan, then started to get involved in the war. If US didn't divide Korea into 2 pieces, then US would not have sacrificed 55,000 lives in the Korean War.

    US have not minded about the local history. The main problem was that they followed Communism, not the matter of pursuing the patriotic people.

    What if US didn't divide Korea? then they would have stayed as one nation without war.
    What if US hadn't help SK? the whole Korea would have become Communist country, then turned into capitalist country as communists fade away, but there was no more division and no more cold war between SK and NK. In the meantime, Russia could have come down south of Korea, China could have come down south of Korea, Japan would have become on the front line, the free world would have shrunk quite a lot, and I cannot imagine further the result thereof.

    There is still a dispute about 2 Islands in the East Sea ( Japs call it Sea of Japan, though it is international Open Sea). Historically it has belonged to Korea, but Jap declared it belongs to Jap in 1905 since they forfeited the Diplomatic Sovereignty of Korea. This means that Japan recognized the ownership belonging to Korea before. There are plenty of historical evidences supporting Korea on this. After WWII, US declared the boundaries of Korea in San Francisco Conference, where the maps were suggested, and even the map support Korea. Currently it is occupied by SK. US could have been clearer on this since it organized the territory issue after the WWII, but has been quiet about it. The problem is that Japan has continuously aggressive about this island and has increased their Navy. In case Japanese attack this island with their Navy much more powerful than SK's, NK may declare the war against Japan too. Then the whole situation becomes much more complicated. Suddenly SK starts to get the assistance from the enemy. US has been quiet saying that they can be neutral all the time. Do you see the difference between Germany and Japan? Germany gave up the lands of Shilesia to Poland, Zdeten to Chech, Saarland to France, even though they had much more right on them than Japanese had anything to do with these tiny lands. US citizens do not know about how much serious this dispute is between Japan and SK now.

    Nope ! This is a big misunderstanding by Americans. As none of News media of US report the truth, ( though sometimes NYT reports quite in depth), many are misled and misunderstanding the facts.

    In 1994, US, NK, and Japan and SK made the agreements as follows:
    1) NK stop and seal the Nuke facility in Young Byon, Heavy Water Reactor
    2) Those countries form an Organization called "KEDO" which build up the Light Water Reactor Nuke Plant in Shinpo.
    3) The Light Water Reactor connstruction may take 5-7 years, in the meantime NK need the electricity, and therefore it should be supplied by KEDO
    4) The cost should be shared by the countries which benfit from this treaty, namely SK, Jap, US, and even EU a little.

    But the treaty was not ratified by the US congress and senate quickly as GOP was majority or objected to it.
    US wanted to sell Westinghouse/GE facility to KEDO, and Russia tried to sell their reactors to KEDO. SK said they would not object to any other country if they are willing to share the cost of KEDO for 70%, but SK would pay only 30% of the KEDO cost if SK don't supply SK model of Reactor. Then all the other competitors gave up and Korea was supposed to pay 70% of the KEDO expense and supply Korean model of Reactor to Nk.

    It






    And to your second post:

    (1) China has provided booster technology to North Korea. In the early 80's they provided reverse engineering of the SCUD-B to NK in the areas of engine design, metallurgy and airframe technology. In 1988-1991, a reported 230 military officials and weapons specialists traveled to Yinchuan, China to learn “nuclear testing technology” and “missile flight testing technology”. In February 1994, US satellites detected new “missile simulator” in Pyongyang. The mock-up appeared to be a two-stage missile with the first stage resembling the Chinese CSS-2. China denies providing North Korea with advanced missile technology. (Source: www.nti.org/e_research/profiles/NK/Missile/66.html)

    (2) As to your second point, we can only speculate, but the history you provided is certainly helpful perspective. Nothing I said in my earlier posts would suggest disagreement. Another perspective that can't be ignored, however, is the massive starvation in NK and the fact that many North Koreans have gone into and sought to go into China for relief of their starvation.

    (4) Huh?

    (5)
    As to fastest economic growth, that's South Korea, not the entire peninsula.

    (6)
    Specifics?

    (7)
    Gosh, we're there to defend South Korea. Imagine the gall of having South Korea pay for that! :rolleyes:

    (8)
    Maybe you don't get out much, but this was certainly reported here.


    And from your last post:



    Pretty brutal.[/quote]
     
  15. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu
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    Double post. I wonder why
     
    #15 Eliyahu, Jul 12, 2006
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2006
  16. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu
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    The following comments clarify further the differences, while I could notice the difference in the expected result of Pre-Emptive Attacks, Supply of the parts from Japan.

    Nope. I said I never condone such behavior but pointed out that "Strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel" (Mt 23: 24)

    of course there is such difference.
    I don't disagree.

    US is very much responsible for the division of Korea into 2 pieces as they divided it at the Yalta conference Feb 1945. If there was no division of Korea there would have happened no Korean War. US ignored the importance of one nation's unity and was ignorant about the history. US may realize it if they suffer the same cruelty in the future. Even Japanese didn't divide Korea then suddenly US divided it into 2 pieces. Many families had to be split due to the split of the country. US declared the their defense line is Japan and Taiwan, which signaled NK may take the south. Then suddenly they realized that the next will become Japan, then started to get involved in the war. If US didn't divide Korea into 2 pieces, then US would not have sacrificed 55,000 lives in the Korean War.

    US have not minded about the local history. The main problem was that they followed Communism, not the matter of pursuing the patriotic people.

    What if US didn't divide Korea? then they would have stayed as one nation without war.
    What if US hadn't help SK? the whole Korea would have become Communist country, then turned into capitalist country as communists fade away, but there was no more division and no more cold war between SK and NK. In the meantime, Russia could have come down south of Korea, China could have come down south of Korea, Japan would have become on the front line, the free world would have shrunk quite a lot, and I cannot imagine further the result thereof.

    There is still a dispute about 2 Islands in the East Sea ( Japs call it Sea of Japan, though it is international Open Sea). Historically it has belonged to Korea, but Jap declared it belongs to Jap in 1905 since they forfeited the Diplomatic Sovereignty of Korea. This means that Japan recognized the ownership belonging to Korea before. There are plenty of historical evidences supporting Korea on this. After WWII, US declared the boundaries of Korea in San Francisco Conference, where the maps were suggested, and even the map support Korea. Currently it is occupied by SK. US could have been clearer on this since it organized the territory issue after the WWII, but has been quiet about it. The problem is that Japan has continuously aggressive about this island and has increased their Navy. In case Japanese attack this island with their Navy much more powerful than SK's, NK may declare the war against Japan too. Then the whole situation becomes much more complicated. Suddenly SK starts to get the assistance from the enemy. US has been quiet saying that they can be neutral all the time. Do you see the difference between Germany and Japan? Germany gave up the lands of Shilesia to Poland, Zdeten to Chech, Saarland to France, even though they had much more right on them than Japanese had anything to do with these tiny lands. US citizens do not know about how much serious this dispute is between Japan and SK now.

    Nope ! This is a big misunderstanding by Americans. As none of News media of US report the truth, ( though sometimes NYT reports quite in depth), many are misled and misunderstanding the facts.

    In 1994, US, NK, and Japan and SK made the agreements as follows:
    1) NK stop and seal the Nuke facility in Young Byon, Heavy Water Reactor
    2) Those countries form an Organization called "KEDO" which build up the Light Water Reactor Nuke Plant in Shinpo.
    3) The Light Water Reactor connstruction may take 5-7 years, in the meantime NK need the electricity, and therefore it should be supplied by KEDO
    4) The cost should be shared by the countries which benfit from this treaty, namely SK, Jap, US, and even EU a little.

    But the treaty was not ratified by the US congress and senate quickly as GOP was majority or objected to it.
    US wanted to sell Westinghouse/GE facility to KEDO, and Russia tried to sell their reactors to KEDO. SK said they would not object to any other country if they are willing to share the cost of KEDO for 70%, but SK would pay only 30% of the KEDO cost if SK don't supply SK model of Reactor. Then all the other competitors gave up and Korea was supposed to pay 70% of the KEDO expense and supply Korean model of Reactor to Nk.

    It sounds too






    And to your second post:

    (1) China has provided booster technology to North Korea. In the early 80's they provided reverse engineering of the SCUD-B to NK in the areas of engine design, metallurgy and airframe technology. In 1988-1991, a reported 230 military officials and weapons specialists traveled to Yinchuan, China to learn “nuclear testing technology” and “missile flight testing technology”. In February 1994, US satellites detected new “missile simulator” in Pyongyang. The mock-up appeared to be a two-stage missile with the first stage resembling the Chinese CSS-2. China denies providing North Korea with advanced missile technology. (Source: www.nti.org/e_research/profiles/NK/Missile/66.html)

    (2) As to your second point, we can only speculate, but the history you provided is certainly helpful perspective. Nothing I said in my earlier posts would suggest disagreement. Another perspective that can't be ignored, however, is the massive starvation in NK and the fact that many North Koreans have gone into and sought to go into China for relief of their starvation.

    (4) Huh?

    (5)
    As to fastest economic growth, that's South Korea, not the entire peninsula.

    (6)
    Specifics?

    (7)
    Gosh, we're there to defend South Korea. Imagine the gall of having South Korea pay for that! :rolleyes:

    (8)
    Maybe you don't get out much, but this was certainly reported here.


    And from your last post:



    Pretty brutal.[/quote]
     
  17. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu
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    double post, sorry but I don't know why this happened.
     
    #17 Eliyahu, Jul 12, 2006
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2006
  18. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu
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    Sorry for this double post.
     
    #18 Eliyahu, Jul 12, 2006
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2006
  19. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu
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    double post, sorry
     
    #19 Eliyahu, Jul 12, 2006
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2006
  20. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu
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    sorry, double post.
     
    #20 Eliyahu, Jul 12, 2006
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2006
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