Featured JC pennys Now 'officially" A gay friendly Company!

Clearly this is exactly where you've drawn your line in the sand. Since you're still using a computer I guess it doesn't bother you that Apple, Microsoft, and IBM and among the top 10 contributors. Sure, maybe they don't have a commercial on television which openly declares but isn't what they're surreptitiously doing worse? I, personally, would much rather SEE the weapon someone is using against me than the one they've got hidden behind their back.

In case you missed it earlier, here's the top 10 corporate sponsors of the gay movement:

LEVIS
American Apparel
Nike
Microsoft
American Airlines
Apple
Google
Starbucks
Boeing
IBM

So, will we still be seeing you on the BB or are you going to boycott Microsoft by refusing to further use their product? Or are you an Apple man? Going to refuse to turn on your computer anymore? Any Levis in your closet? How about Nikes? Do you drink Coke or Pepsi products? They're huge supporters as well. Do you patronize McDonald's, Red Lobster, Olive Garden or many other restaurants?

Do you see my point? Where does one draw the line? Can we, as Christians, be totally self-sufficient to the point where we CAN boycott ALL the companies that donate to and support the gay movement? How can we know which ones do? I was very surprised when I began investigating this as to how many companies, not only support it, but largely support it...monetarily, teaching diversity, offering benefits, lobbying for gay marriage, etc. A Christian boycott of JC Penney isn't going to stop all these companies.

 

Good point. To tell the truth, I have wondered about this on numerous occasions. I grew up in the military, and we attended several Baptist churches. There was one that was rather vehement about never shopping at stores that support issues we oppose. The more I looked at it, the more I became convinced that, in order to completely follow that line of reasoning, one would have to live on a plantation outside of civilation and live solely off the land.

Didn't Paul make a statement concerning the meat sold in the market that was presented to the idols? He warned not to eat such if it proved to be a stumblingblock to others. I have not experienced people questioning my stand as a Christian when I shop at WalMart or use an Apple computer. I feel that I can find better ways to take a stand that will be noticed.

 

I've come to the conclusion that people's problem is not that JC Penney has become a gay-friendly company (if you look at some of those links I gave you back a couple of pages, it's not a new thing) but that they've openly come out and promoted it on TELEVISION where we now have to see it every few hours.

 

It's ALWAYS been out in the open if people cared to look for the facts. These corporations don't keep it a secret where their money goes. The problem is that it's now right there on television in commercials. Most Christians wouldn't know, or couldn't care less, that every cheeseburger they buy at McDonald's helps fund the gay movement, or every computer they buy, or pair of Levis or Nikes. The problem is that JCP has put it right there in your living room, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. THAT'S the objection.

 

Your argument and that of others here following suite rests on the Perfectionist Fallacy/All or Nothing reasoning and I’ve not only previously addressed that but also the consequences if everyone where to use such faulty reasoning. To claim I’m being hypocritical for having a point to which I will draw a line and will take action against those who have crossed it while you reason this on the same fallacious principle which accusation rests on that I would not unequal offenses with an equal response. You’ve only gone to further prove my point that if everyone used the type of illogical rationale in their reasoning that you demonstrated here there would be no deterrent whatsoever for any major company that wished to take lead in the charge to push its immoral agendas on society. Again, I’m glad such isn’t so because these heathen could then march forward unopposed. Although, unfortunately, granted, the tide of people that does buy into such liberal pacifist reasoning and fallacies is continuing to rise and I would admit the ultimate results are unavoidable. I just personally choose to stand up and push back against someone/some powerhouse that blatantly leaps over that line in an attempt to test the waters to see how far they can go. You can choose to stick your head in the sand and hide behind your faulty justifications for doing so if you like, it’s a free country. K?

Since it is obvious I am just repeating myself here and the point I have made about fallacy is being ignoring/falling on deaf ears, let me spell it out for the benefit of those who don’t seem to be able to get the jest of what they are attempting to argue here and are interested in validity in their arguments rather than rhetorical ploys to try to win an argument:

The Perfectionist Fallacy is a particular subspecies of the false dilemma and a common rhetorical ploy. It comes up when a plan or policy is under consideration and it goes like this:

If policy X will not meet our goals as well as we’d like them met (i.e., “perfectly”) then policy X should be rejected.

This principle downgrades policy X simply because it isn’t perfect perfection in meeting the goals. It’s a version of a false dilemma because it says in effect, “Either the policy is perfect, or else we must reject it.” Basic Logic - Critical Thinking, Moore/Parker.

 

I mean not your own conscience, but the other man's; for why is my freedom judged by another's conscience? If I partake with thankfulness, why am I slandered concerning that for which I give thanks?
1 Corinthians 10:29-30 NAS77

If you are under conviction not to do business with JC Penny then by all means don't. That is your conviction and your brothers and sisters could do no less than support you and encourage you. Paul begs the question, "...for why is my freedom judged by another's conscience?" Apparently someone was offended that Paul was eating food that had been sacrificed to an idol. Paul's response was essentially, "You call it a sacrifice. I call it a steak." Paul snatched a steak out of the Devil's mouth and thanked the Lord for the meal.

Go ahead and boycott JC Penny if that is your conviction but do not think less of your brothers and sisters because we don't have the same convictions.

You'll reply using a computer that won't run without products from either Microsoft or Apple. Apple's CEO, Tim Cook is openly gay. Microsoft donated $100000 to support Washington state's marriage equality law this past January. How do you conclude that shopping at Penny's is morally repugnant but using a computer is not?

 

You are exactly right. For anyone to claim the moral high ground due to a boycott of one company over another who doesn't have a commercial is asinine and insulting(not to mention the alleged "all or nothing" fallacy being invoked is really a joke)

 

For a fast food eating, we go to Chick-fil-a. They are openly opposed to gay marriage and should be supported. Besides, the food is great. See below.


http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/chick-fil-gay-marriage-201108120--finance.html

 

First of all, again you’ve missed the point, no matter that you just said if it is my conviction then to do so, because in the next breath you’ve turned right around and attempted to “downgrade” my policy to boycott J C Penny’s, which I consider an extreme forward charge to further an immoral agenda, on the grounds that it is not perfect by using a comparison to me using a computer and Microsoft making a 100000 donation. Again, the reasoning you have used to “downgrade” my efforts simply doesn’t fly, it is purely fallacious! Another reason one should not take such an approach and present this fallacious argument as you do is because if you use it to hamper the efforts of one side, you automatically help out that of the other.

Second, personally, “anytime” I have a “reasonable” choice between option A and option B when one option is less supportive to such agendas that are against my Christian values I will choose that option. Anytime! In affect you are now also suggesting that I compare the simple and basically non-sacrificial task of shopping elsewhere to work against J C Penny’s agenda to the very sacrificial task of giving up the computer and using that argument to justify not taking any action at all when it comes to the practice of boycotting when reasonable to do so.
You’re reasoning and motives to hamper the efforts of others (Christians) who would take action, especially when it is easy and does not even create a burden of any significance at all in most cases makes no sense to me whatsoever!

Why not do what you can and support all positive reactions “whenever” possible to the offense of evil?!? Why even be so ambitious to take up such an argument? If your argument was solely based on that it is wrong to judge the conscience of other Christians that is one thing and I would you some credit for that argument and could understand that, but you and others have taken it much further than that and use poorly reasoned excuses why not to take simple action and try to convince others that their efforts are hopeless, futile, judgmental against other Christians, and go about suggesting the action has no value whatsoever to hamper the efforts of boycotts.

I see this latest defense as more of the same in that it shows an ongoing effort to hamper the efforts of those who are opposed and willing to take action such as boycotting against these agendas which use the unethical use of economic power to further their cause. I’ll admit I consider those kinds of priorities from my brothers and sisters in Christ problematic when they seem to be on a mission of withholding the good that can come from it.

Withhold not good from them to whom it is due, when it is in the power of thine hand to do it.
(Pro 3:27)

 

I don't care for Chick-fil-a, as a matter of fact I even called it Chick-fil-yuk, but I suppose I could stomach a little for a good cause. :thumbs:

 

If you can't deal with the reason and logic to participate in such a boycott just begin on Ad Hominem accusations of your opponent being on the moral high ground and such to try to win your groundless argument! You've simply traded one fallacy for another, typical of the tactics on this board, but not very respectable in my book.

 

So you will boycott someone and call it a principled decision as long as it doesn't really inconvenience you. I get it now. :thumbsup: Thank you for clarifying.

 

Just avoid all my points to try to get in your condesending little jab in and carry on while foregoing answering why you would take such an approach to argue against boycotts in regards to points I made...

That particular point was to point that it is no effort at all for one take such action against J C Penny and yet you argue against it. Further that your comparison was far from being apples to apples. But you knew that.

I'm done, tired of the childishness.

 

Condescending? You were the one who said boycotting Penny's required no sacrifice from you at all. You simply make a choice to shop elsewhere. What's the point?

You know what I see when I read of Christian groups boycotting this company or that? I see folks who believe that God is not working fast enough to stop sin. The call to boycott is usually accompanied with words like .... immediate action.... take action now... Why? Because we conclude if God isn't going to do something soon we will.


"And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin, and righteousness, and judgment; concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me;
John 16:8-9 NAS77

As much as corporate behavior turns the stomach it is still the work of the Holy Spirit to convict and convince the individuals making the decisions. Companies don't sin. People do. It's up to God (the Holy Spirit) to convict and punish the sinner. It's not the job of the Christian to convince unbelievers to not sin.

In the Great Commission Jesus told us what to do:

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
Matthew 28:19-20 NAS77

That's the noble work of the believer. God will judge the unsaved. We are to proclaim the Good News! Corporate behavior is a reflection of the people running the company. You can choose to punish the company for repugnant behavior - sinners acting like sinners - or you can take the high road and offer them Jesus.

 

I'm saying "you" have little to no sacrifice in withdrawing your funding from J C Penny who engaged in this ambitious agenda. So what your point in not doing so?

There are many noble causes in which believer may serve the Lord.

Why don’t you just say, “If God didn’t want people to be homosexual He would have determined it so”? No, we are responsible for our actions and God gives instruction to rebuke the actions of others, to discipline them and keep them from sin for their own good. What does “make disciples” mean? I just came down on my 18 year old son for procrastinating today. I used:

Do this now, my son, and deliver thyself, when thou art come into the hand of thy friend; go, humble thyself, and make sure thy friend. Give not sleep to thine eyes, nor slumber to thine eyelids. Deliver thyself as a roe from the hand of the hunter, and as a bird from the hand of the fowler. Go to the ant, thou sluggard; consider her ways, and be wise: Which having no guide, overseer, or ruler, Provideth her meat in the summer, and gathereth her food in the harvest. How long wilt thou sleep, O sluggard? when wilt thou arise out of thy sleep? Yet a little sleep, a little slumber, a little folding of the hands to sleep: So shall thy poverty come as one that travelleth, and thy want as an armed man.
(Pro 6:3-11)

He didn’t like it but he knows I do because I want him to be all he can be, and I do it because I love him.

My daughter has persuaded several of her peers to change their view on abortion, should tell her to give up the battle and leave it in solely in God’s hands, isn’t He working fast enough for you?

He that saith unto the wicked, Thou art righteous; him shall the people curse, nations shall abhor him: But to them that rebuke him shall be delight, and a good blessing shall come upon them. Every man shall kiss his lips that giveth a right answer.
(Pro 24:24-26)

My answer to J C Penny is that I will boycott their wickedness so you should be puckering up rather than looking for excuses to avoid taking action against them.:laugh:

 

Let's see...you started off with a

...then added...

...and then have the gall to bring up anything concerning logic and fallacies? This is respectable? :laugh:

The only one who hasn't dealt with the "reason" and "logic" in this discussion is you and your avoidance of the many points brought up to you that you tried to brush under the rug with your over the top replies.

Who does your boycott hurt, Benjamin? Selective boycotting of companies based on how they affect and don't affect us is hardly the basis for a boycott in the first place. It reeks of self with a spattering of Pharisaic finger wagging thrown in to those who don't equally select such companies.

 

Address the reasoning of what would happen if everyone took your attitude against the agendas of the wickedness in the world then.

I must have have missed where you dealt with the fallacy I pointed out right from a college text on logic. Oh, wait a minute, you said it was a joke, that's right! Boy you showed me! :laugh:

Go ahead and respond by tucking your tail between your legs and rush on out to buy some socks from them then. I'm a pharisee now, ...great logic there dawg. :sleep:

 

Ah yes...the hypothetical "what if".

Red Herring much?

Well, merely stating something is a fallacy doesn't make it one. That is the fallacy known as begging the question.

Did you cite your source if you took it right from a text, btw?

...and yet another attempt to answer a simple question is ignored. Gee...wonder why that is <end sarcasm>

Keep on making the non sacrifice of boycotting a company that you don't rely on...while ignoring the one who plays the greater role in, how did you put it... "agendas of the wickedness in the world" who you do rely on for your day to day needs.