Jerusalem as Babylon...?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Iconoclast, Mar 12, 2013.

  1. Iconoclast

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    Here is the latest Ken Gentry email, for any who would like to consider it-

    Babylon Is Jerusalem

    Gentry Theology Studies

    Babylon Is Jerusalem (Part 1)
    (GTS 13:016)

    Before demonstrating that John uses Babylon as a metaphor of Jerusalem, we must rehearse two important interpretive keys to the Book of Revelation.

    (1) Revelation is dealing with events "which must soon take place" (Rev 1:1; cp. 1:3; 22:6, 10). It is not prophesying events thousands of years distant from John’s original audience. (2) John is reflecting on Jesus’ Olivet Discourse and has his stated theme the judgment of Israel in AD 70. Note that the only two verses in the Bible that merge Dan 7:13 and Zech 12:10 are Matt 24:30 and Rev 1:7. In Matt 24:30 Jesus is clearly dealing with the destruction of the temple (Matt 24:2, 16) in the first century (Matt 24:34). John’s theme in Rev 1:7 states that Jesus is coming in a cloud-judgment against those who crucified him (in the NT the Jews are blamed for Christ’s crucifixion (Matt 26:59, 66; 27:1; Mark 14:64; Luke 23:22–23; 24:20; Acts 2:22–23, 36; 3:13–15a; 4:10; 5:28, 30; 7:52; 10:39; 13:27–29; 1 Thess 2:14–15). As a consequence, all the tribes of "the Land" (the Greek ge is usually translated "earth," but can and should be translated "Land," i.e., the Promised Land).

    In Revelation 17:3–6 John views a horrifying sight. Seated upon the dreadful beast is the sinful Harlot: "I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: And upon her forehead [was] a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration."

    Since she sits on the seven-headed beast, some believe she represents the city of Rome. This is because she is resting on Rome’s seven hills and is called "Babylon," which often applies to Rome in antiquity. But since the beast itself represents Rome, it seems redundant to have the woman representing the same. Also, the name "Babylon" does not historically belong either to Rome or Jerusalem, and thus cannot prove that the city is Rome. I am convinced beyond any doubt that this harlot is first-century Jerusalem. The evidence for so identifying Jerusalem is based on the following considerations.

    First, Revelation 14:8 calls Babylon "the great city." But in the first mention of "the great city" in Revelation 11:8, this indisputably refers to Jerusalem, "where also our Lord was crucified" (cf. Lk 9:31; 13:33–34; 18:31; 24:18–20). Her greatness especially highlights her covenantal status in the Old Testament (Jer 22:8; Lam 1:1). But even pagan writers speak highly of Jerusalem as a significant contemporary city. Tacitus calls it "a famous city." Pliny the Elder comments that it is "by far the most famous city of the ancient Orient." Appian, a Roman lawyer and writer (ca. AD 160) called it "the great city Jerusalem" (Tacitus, Histories 5:2; Fragments of the Histories 1; Pliny, Natural History 5:14:70; Appian, The Syrian Wars 50). The Sibylline Oracles, Josephus, and the Talmud concur in calling Jerusalem "a great city" (Sibylline Oracles 5:150–154, 408–413; Josephus, J.W. 7:1:1; 7:8:7. For Talmudic references, see: Edersheim, Sketches of Jewish Social Life, 82). Thus, the first interpretive clue to Babylon’s identity points to Jerusalem.

    Second, the harlot is filled with the blood of the saints (Rev 16:6; 17:6; 18:21, 24). Of course, with the outbreak of Nero’s persecution, which commences just prior to John’s writing Revelation, Rome is stained with the saints’ blood. But Rome has only recently entered the persecuting ranks of God’s enemies. Throughout Acts Jerusalem is appears as the persecutor and Rome as the protector of Christianity (Acts 4:3; 5:18–33; 6:12; 7:54–60; 8:1ff; 9:1–4, 13, 23; 11:19; 12:1–3; 13:45–50; 14:2–5, 19; 16:23; 17:5–13; 18:12; 20:3, 19; 21:11, 27; 22:30; 23:12, 20, 27, 30; 24:5–9; 25:2–15; 25:24; 26:21. See also: 2 Co 11:24; 2Th 2:14–15; Heb 10:32–34). Interestingly, in the Olivet Discourse context Jesus reproaches Jerusalem: "Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. . . . Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!" (Mt 23:34–35, 37). Before his stoning Stephen rebukes Jerusalem: "Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? And they have slain them who showed before of the coming of the Just One, of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers" (Ac 7:51–52).

    Paul warns of Jewish persecution: "For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judea in Christ Jesus. For you also suffered the same things from your own countrymen, just as they did from the Jews, who killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they do not please God and are contrary to all men, forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved, so as always to fill up the measure of their sins; but wrath has come upon them to the uttermost" (1Th 2:14–16).

    Third, the harlot’s dress reflects the Jewish priestly colors of scarlet, purple, and gold (cp. Rev 17:4–5 with Ex 25:2, 4; 26:1, 31, 36; 27:16; 28:1–2, 5–12, 15, 17–23, 33). In fact, she even has a blasphemous tiara on her forehead, which reads: "Mystery, Babylon the Great, the Mother of Harlots and of the Abominations of the Earth" (Rev 17:5). This negatively portrays the holy tiara that the Jewish high priest wore, which declares "Holy to the Lord" (Ex 28:36–38). Still further, the harlot has a gold cup in her hand, reflecting the high priest on the Day of Atonement, according to the Jewish Talmud.[1]

    Fourth, Rome cannot commit adultery against God, for she had never been God’s wife. But Jerusalem was God’s wife (Isa 1:21; 57:8; Jer 2:2, 20; 3:1–20; 4:30; 11:15; 13:27; Eze 16; Hos 2:5; 3:3; 4:15), and Scripture often charges her with committing adultery against him (Isa 1:21; 57:8; Jer 2:2, 20; 3:1–20; 4:30; 11:15; 13:27; Eze 16; Hos 2:5; 3:3; 4:15). The harlot imagery better suits an adulterous wife, such as Jerusalem.

    I will conclude this study in my next Gentry Theology Studies email.:wavey:
     
  2. HisWitness

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    Jerusalem was Babylon in Revelation :thumbsup::thumbsup:

    Jesus said he was not sent BUT to the lost sheep of the house of Israel,and also when he sent his disciples out,he sent them ONLY to the jews--NOT to the gentiles.In the 4 gospels,the judgements and so forth and things within them,were for the JEWS--when you read with that understanding of the 4 gospels and even in Revelation also,then things will come together alot better and the puzzle will fit together :)
     
  3. Iconoclast

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    The Covenant curses of Deut 28-32.....came upon national Israel when Jesus rode in on a donkey and was rejected...Mt 21:43-

    The True Israel ISA 49 :1-8 began to build His church from the elect remnant,and grafted in Gentiles.
     
  4. HisWitness

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    The Deut 28 curses was upon the jews in the old testament also for not keep his commandments--they were evident within the jews when Christ came in the flesh and began to heal and cast them out.

    I do agree that Paul was chosen as the Apostle to the Gentiles in bringing them in at that time.
     
  5. Yeshua1

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    guess paul did not get the memo, for he thought that 'God forbid" that the Lord has quit dealing with national isreal and ONLY with the Church going forward!

    and Babylon was code name in early churech for rome, as in writing of Peter, from "babylon!"
     
  6. thomas15

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    This saying comes to mind...."Rust Never Sleeps". What is never explained in a satisfactory way is why. Why would God call Jerusalem Babylon when throughout Scripture he always identifies Jerusalem as Jerusalem and Babylon as Babylon and Rome as Rome? God had no problem in the days prior to the captivity telling Jerusalem it would be judged. God has no problem telling many other nations that they would be judged. And God says in his word that he will some day restore Jerusalem which would argue against it being Babylon which in Revelation will be destroyed never to be rebuilt? And the Romans certainly would not be offended if the early Christians went around saying that God is going to destroy either Jerusalem or Babylon.
     
  7. Iconoclast

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    5 For Israel hath not been forsaken, nor Judah of his God, of the Lord of hosts; though their land was filled with sin against the Holy One of Israel.

    6 Flee out of the midst of Babylon, and deliver every man his soul: be not cut off in her iniquity; for this is the time of the Lord's vengeance; he will render unto her a recompence.

    7 Babylon hath been a golden cup in the Lord's hand, that made all the earth drunken: the nations have drunken of her wine; therefore the nations are mad.

    8 Babylon is suddenly fallen and destroyed: howl for her; take balm for her pain, if so be she may be healed.

    9 We would have healed Babylon, but she is not healed: forsake her, and let us go every one into his own country: for her judgment reacheth unto heaven, and is lifted up even to the skies.

    10 The Lord hath brought forth our righteousness: come, and let us declare in Zion the work of the Lord our God.

    11 Make bright the arrows; gather the shields: the Lord hath raised up the spirit of the kings of the Medes: for his device is against Babylon, to destroy it; because it is the vengeance of the Lord, the vengeance of his temple.

    12 Set up the standard upon the walls of Babylon, make the watch strong, set up the watchmen, prepare the ambushes: for the Lord hath both devised and done that which he spake against the inhabitants of Babylon.

    13 O thou that dwellest upon many waters, abundant in treasures, thine end is come, and the measure of thy covetousness.


    18 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.

    2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

    3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

    4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

    5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

    6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

    7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.

    8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

    9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,

    10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.


    20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.
     
    #7 Iconoclast, Mar 14, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 14, 2013
  8. thomas15

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    One of the many problems with the idiotic contention that Babylon is really a code word for Jerusalem is that most of if not all of modern Christian behavior is as bad as, or maybe even worse than that of the 1st century Jews. I say this in light of the warnings Jesus gave to the church in Ephesus (Rev 2:5), Pergamum (Rev 2:14-16) and Thyatira (Rev 2:20-23). Of course this goes right over the head of some. So how does the preterist when he stumbles avoid the curse of babylon? Of course the fact that Babylon is a picture or type (we all know preterist love pictures and types) of idolaltry does not matter to the preterist.

    Even the pagan Magi got a few things correct, they were searching Bethlehem for who? Answer: The King of the Jews. Pilate likewise, got it right and we know this because Jesus didn't correct him Mat 27:11
     
  9. Iconoclast

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    Jerusalem Is Babylon (Part 2)
    (GTS 13:017)

    In my last email I began a brief argument for John’s Babylon being a metaphor for first-century Jerusalem. In this study I will bring the argument to a conclusion. Though I welcome questions!

    John clearly engages in a literary contrast between the harlot and the chaste bride, suggesting that he is counterposing the Jerusalem below with the Jerusalem above (Rev 21:2; cf. Gal 4:24ff.; Heb 12:18ff.). In Revelation 17:2–5 and Revelation 21:1ff the contrast is remarkable and detailed. We must remember that Revelation specifically designates the bride as the "New Jerusalem" from heaven. We see at least five contrasts:

    (1) Notice how John is introduced to the harlot: "Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and talked with me, saying to me, ‘Come, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters’ " (Rev 17:1). This is identical to the way he sees the bride: "Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, ‘Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife’ " (Rev 21:9).

    (2) The two women have a contrasting character: "Come, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters" (Rev 17:1). "Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife" (Rev 21:9).

    (3) The two women appear in contrasting environments: "So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness. And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast" (Rev 17:3). "And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God" (Rev 21:10).

    (4) John focuses on the contrasting dress of each woman: "The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the filthiness of her fornication" (Rev 17:4). "And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints . . . having the glory of God. And her light was like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone, clear as crystal" (Rev 19:8; 21:11).

    (5) John contrasts their names. Earlier in Revelation Johns calls earthly Jerusalem by pagan names quite compatible with the designation "Babylon." In Revelation 11:8 he describes here as "spiritually Sodom and Egypt." In an earlier day Isaiah identifies Jerusalem as Sodom and Gomorrah (Isa 1). The idea is that rather than conducting herself as the wife of God, she has become one of God’s enemies, like Sodom, Egypt, and Babylon.

    The fact that the harlot sits on the seven-headed beast (which represents Rome) indicates not her identity with Rome, but her alliance with Rome against Christianity. The Jews demand Christ’s crucifixion (Mt 27:24–25; Jn 19:12–15; Ac 2:23) and constantly either directly persecute Christians (Mt 23:37ff; Ac 8:1; 1Th 2:14–17) or stir up the Romans to do so (Ac 12:1–3; 17:5–7).

    The evidence proves that the harlot is Jerusalem (for more detailed discussion see my book The Book of Revelation Made Easy). John’s Revelation contrasts the Jerusalem below with the Jerusalem above, as in Hebrews 12:22 and Galatians 4:25–26. The Jerusalem below has forsaken her husband in denying the Messiah.

    I believe it to be supremely clear that John is dealing with Jerusalem under the image of Babylon. She is the new enemy of God, even being called "a synagogue of Satan" (Rev 2:9; 3:9) and "Egypt" (Rev 11:8). This is much like Isaiah calling Israel Sodom and Gomorrah (Isa 1:10) and Ezekiel calling her the sister of Sodom (Eze 16:49).
     
  10. Iconoclast

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    Do you think Isaiah or Paul was idiotic when they wrote of Jerusalem in this way?

    9 Except the Lord of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.

    10 Hear the word of the Lord, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.


    or John in Revelation-
    Revelation 11:8
    And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

    Jerusalem...Sodom and Egypt......all linked by John.

    So...John was a preterist loving this kind of language.:laugh::wavey::thumbs:
     
  11. Yeshua1

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    Jerusalem is the city of God in both OT/NT, and the Lord will have jesus returning to rule from there over isreal and the earth, so how could it be babylon?
     
  12. thomas15

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    A better question to ask is why would it be babylon? Perhaps the human writers of God's word don't know how to spell?
     
  13. Yeshua1

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    Must have been in "Bible Code!"
     
  14. Iconoclast

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    (5) John contrasts their names. Earlier in Revelation Johns calls earthly Jerusalem by pagan names quite compatible with the designation "Babylon." In Revelation 11:8 he describes here as "spiritually Sodom and Egypt." In an earlier day Isaiah identifies Jerusalem as Sodom and Gomorrah (Isa 1). The idea is that rather than conducting herself as the wife of God, she has become one of God’s enemies, like Sodom, Egypt, and Babylon.
     
  15. thomas15

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    Truly amazing but there are those who hold the Bible to be the Word of God and still actually believe this.
     
  16. Yeshua1

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    At THAT time, isreal was in aposty agains their Lord, were in rebellion, but God did NOT cut them off totally, for he also said that he had a coming Messiah, and that one day Isreal would beruled over by Him in his throne from jerusalem!

    That is yet to come!
     
  17. Iconoclast

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    Peter said Jesus rules now as Lord and Christ...he is seated on athrone from the heavenly Jerusalem.....

    29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

    30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

    31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

    32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

    33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

    34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

    35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

    36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
     
  18. Iconoclast

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    Then again the whole church reads the bible and sees the teaching about God's covenants, but you do not see them either:thumbsup::thumbsup:
     
  19. salzer mtn

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    Icon thank you for posting this.
     
  20. Iconoclast

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    Hello SM,

    There is much good teaching on these portions and how it relates to the Kingdom.....I am still learning and studying on this whole topic of jesus as the new Exodus...the true Israel...

    All the elements are in the gospels showing Him to fulfill it all....

    He is the new exodus, the true israel, the true manna, the true tabernacle, our Great high priest, the lamb slain, the passover blood...the last Adam,etc.
     

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