Jesue 'BECAME' flesh or 'IS' flesh??

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by MRCoon, May 24, 2006.

  1. MRCoon

    MRCoon
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    I have often understood that the human body is similiar to the Trinity. That of the body, soul, & spirit...so is it fair to say that God is the soul, Jesus the body and the Holy Spirit is the spirit? If this is right then has Jesus always been flesh or was he flesh for 33 years? Is He still in the form of flesh in heaven in a resurrected body or is He a "spirit-like" being?

    "Jesus did not become human in Bethlehem; He became flesh in Bethlehem."
    "He didn't learn how to become a man when He came to Bethlehem. He already was one."
    "Jesus says, 'Father, you have never been human. I have always been human.'"
    "Jesus is man. He always was man."
    "Jesus was always man or human ...; Jesus did not become man in Bethlehem; He became flesh."


    Any comments on these statements?
     
  2. whatever

    whatever
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    Sounds a lot like heresy to me.
     
  3. Marcia

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    I do not think Jesus had a human body before the incarnation. That is what the incarnation was. I believe that he is in his glorified body now, which is the pattern for our resurrected bodies that we will have one day.
     
  4. blackbird

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    Sounds like WOF to me
     
  5. doulous

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    Sounds like Mormonism to me.
     
  6. Marcia

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    Except that Mormons teach that God was once a man. So it does not sound like Mormonism.

    Sounds more like one of the cults that deny the deity of Christ like the Way International.
     
  7. Ransom

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    so is it fair to say that God is the soul, Jesus the body and the Holy Spirit is the spirit?

    Sounds suspiciously like the classical heresy of Apollinarianism - Christ having a human body inhabited by a divine soul and spirit.
     
  8. blackbird

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    Jesus' human body was also a divine body

    Flesh, bone, and blood just like us humans---but yet fully diety!! His flesh was God's flesh! His bones was God's bones! His blood was God's blood!

    John 1:14 says, "And the Word became flesh . . ."

    And also---right at this very moment----Jesus IS flesh

    And throughout all eternity Jesus will be God in flesh!!
     
  9. MRCoon

    MRCoon
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    Sorry I should not had played the Devil's advocate with this thread. I am glad that many of you have reacted the same way as I did when a fellow Believer and I had this topic come up in a discussion so this is why I brought it up.

    My answer was this:

    Get into the Bible, not a commentary or another man's sermon. And to study these two passages and get back with me on Saturday for coffee and further discussion.

    Phillippians 2:5-8:

    5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

    6Who, being in the form of God thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

    7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

    8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

    Hebrews 2:14-17:

    14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

    15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

    16For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

    17Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

    I vaguely recall something like this about Dr. Hyles quite a few years back...but can't recall which side of the argument he was on. Either way, that was probably gossip and don't matter to this topic so if you have any verses, links or advice then I would love to have them to refer to.
     
  10. DeeJay

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    Sounds like Mormonism to me. </font>[/QUOTE]Most of the above statements directly conflict with the teachings of Mormonism.
     
  11. webdog

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    Did Jesus have a "body" prior to His incarnation, or has He not always been God/Man? Was He "Spirit" only?

    In what "body" did "The Angel of the Lord" have when He ate with Abraham?

    What kind of bodies to Angels have?

    What kind of body did Jesus ascend into Heaven with? Was it the same or similar to what He had prior to His incarnation?

    What kind of bodies will we have some day?

    To understand the point the person in the OP was trying to make, we need to understand the context in which he was trying to make it. There are two views:
    1. Jesus existed only in Spirit prior to His birth. He now exists as God/Man.
    2. Jesus has always been God/Man, but took on a "fleshly", corruptible body for our sake. He still exists as God/Man.

    I think this is one of those things we can never know until we get to Heaven.
     
  12. Marcia

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    How could Jesus be man/human before the incarnation? Is this an orthodox Christian position? I never heard it before.

    Heb. 2 speaks of Jesus taking on the seed of Abraham and being made like men.

    Being human involves having a body (plus more but a body is part of it), so I don't see how Jesus could have been human before the incarnation.
     
  13. bapmom

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    The Bible says that Jesus took upon Himself the form of a man.....which implies that He was not always in that form.

    The "Angel of the Lord", if it was God the Son, then He could have formed any body He wanted for just that purpose of meeting with Abraham. This did not have to mean that Jesus was man before the Incarnation.
     
  14. webdog

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    Jesus said before Abraham was "I Am". Was He speaking only from a deity standpoint? I don't think so. I don't believe Jesus existed in some sort of spiritual form prior to His incarnation, and NOW exists in a totally different form, the body He ascended into Heaven with. When on the Mount with Moses and Elijah, His appearance changed, which I always wondered may have been Jesus' image prior to becoming "flesh".

    We are also told that nobody can see God and live, but The Angel of the Lord (deity) appeared throughout the OT to man, as Jesus appeared to man in the NT. I believe that Jesus existed in a perfect body (like the one He left with) prior to becoming "flesh" (the greek, sarx, literally meaning meat). Meat dies and rots. The body Christ had prior to, and after His ascension could not die, and would not have rotted.
     
  15. webdog

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    Being human also involves having a corruptible body that dies, something Jesus needed for the cross. Angels have bodies, and they aren't considered human.
     
  16. Marcia

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    Being human also involves having a corruptible body that dies, something Jesus needed for the cross. Angels have bodies, and they aren't considered human. </font>[/QUOTE]What makes you think angels have physical bodies?
     
  17. thjplgvp

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    1 Corinthians 15:39-40 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
     
  18. bapmom

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    they are described in at least two different places.

    Seraphim as having 3 pairs of wings

    and Cherubim in Ecclesiastes as being very strange looking (my paraphrase [​IMG] )

    Just because the body doesn't have the same properties as ours does does not mean it isn't actually a physical body. Being able to appear and disappear at times right in front of us can be a function of many different possibilities. Perhaps an angel can refract light around itself so that we can no longer see it. Perhaps they can move so fast that it looks to us like they aren't there. Maybe they are able to function between varying levels of existence (whatever that means).

    Back on topic, I still do not believe that Jesus was in human form from eternity. He did not take on flesh until He became a baby. There are various reasons for my thinking, but one is if he already had a body before than what was the purpose of being born of Mary? The Saviour is also described as being the "seed of the woman", so her seed was used to form a body. If He already had one that why was she needed, and why would He be called her seed?
     
  19. thjplgvp

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    Baptist mom and others,

    Forgive if I say you do err not knowing the scriptures.

    God said let us make man in our image, so God man made a body and a soul and God breathed the breath of life into him and man became a living soul. Hence at least one part of that image is body and one part is soul. Image means likeness.

    God walked with Adam and Eve in the cool of the evening. To walk with implies human legs and human feet.

    In Gen 18 we have the story of the destruction of Sodom and in verse 2 we read that Abram saw three men and verse 1 says the Lord appeared to him. So the Lord was one of those three men.

    Then we have Joshua 5:15 where the Captain of the Lord’s host says to Joshua “loose thy shoe from off thy foot for the place whereon though standeth is holy.” Virtually the same words spoken by God in Exodus 3:5.

    In John 20:17 Jesus told the women not to touch him for he had not yet ascended unto the Father and in 19-20 he tells his Thomas to reach forth and touch. IMO he was his eternal self after ascendancy.

    In Revelation 13:8 the implication is made that the Lamb was slain form the foundation of the world. This would indicate that the Lamb was there to collaborate with God concerning his sacrifice from eternity past.

    I say all of this to show that Christ has always had a body of flesh when it was needed. To say that the Godhead is eternal and then deny the physical existence of God in the flesh as Christ is questionable. Not only do we impugn God’s power we question his eternal completeness of the Godhead. With whom did he say let us make man in our own image?
     
  20. blackbird

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    The Bible says that God(the Trinity) is invisible

    Then the Bible says that God the Son became flesh

    "A body Thou hast prepared for Me"

    Study John 1:14 and the whole of the epistle of Colossians
     

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