Jesus and the OT Law

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Tom Bryant, Aug 13, 2011.

  1. Tom Bryant

    Tom Bryant
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    In another thread, HankD asked freeatlast this question:

    Freeat last said it was a good question and that he would answer it if someone else started the thread.

    so was Jesus breaking the OT law by not condemning the woman who was caught in adultery?
     
  2. freeatlast

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    Hello Tom,
    this question or one similar to it comes up from time to time. Usually from those who oppose the death penalty. Their is not a problem with the question as all questions should be answered when asked from a learning heart and not one to trap or to prosper ones on tainted views.
    The passage in question is in John 8:1-11. Like anything if we have preconceived ideas or agendas the Lord will not reveal the truth to us but leave us with our false understandings and desires which leads to judgment. Let’s look at the passage;
    Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.
    And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.
    And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
    They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
    Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
    This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with [his] finger wrote on the ground, [as though he heard them not].
    So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
    And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
    And they which heard [it], being convicted by [their own] conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, [even] unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
    When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
    She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.


    I always find it amusing and sad that man can seek so diligently to promote his own agenda and God finds it so easy to confound it. The assumption is always the same from those who use this passage to promote their false doctrine and beliefs. to trap and beguile. The claim is that Jesus did not allow her to be put to death. That is simply not the truth. In fact if you read the passage carefully he ordered them to put her to death. They simply did not do it because they had been confronted with their own sin of hypocrisy and in guilt and shame walked away.
    After they had left Jesus asked her if there was no one to condemn her and she said no one Lord. It took at least two people to accuse someone and there was none so the Lord did not violate the law or override it. He told her what the law prescribed when there is no man to condemn, “neither do I condemn you.”
    However he does not stop there. He warns her to go and sin no more and then in the following passages gives the answer to sinners as to where to turn for redemption.
    So the Lord did not stop them from condemning her as she deserved death under the law. However because of their own evil hearts they disobeyed the law that they thought would entrap the Master and she went free. The same is still happening today.
     
    #2 freeatlast, Aug 13, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 13, 2011
  3. Tom Bryant

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    So, you're saying that Jesus broke the commandment because of the evil of the accuser's heart?

    Should David have been killed for his role in the death of Uriah? Should both he and Bathsheba had been killed for their adultery?

    Would you have led the charge?
     
  4. freeatlast

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    You need to read what I said as I did not say what you have stated.
     
  5. Tom Bryant

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    I think you're wrong that Jesus ordered them to kill her. But, according to you, they sensed their own sinfulness, so they didn't. Since Jesus was sinless, why didn't he do it?
     
  6. freeatlast

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    I also covered that in what I wrote.
     
  7. TCGreek

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    Why are putting Jesus on trial? :D
     
  8. Amy.G

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    According to OT Law, both parties had to be held accountable for adultery. Since they only brought the woman, they would have violated the Law by stoning her. Jesus knew they wouldn't cast the first stone because that would be in violation of the Law and the Pharisees would have been Law breakers and proven guilty publicly.

    I don't think they sensed their own sin in the slightest.
     
  9. HankD

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    Exodus 35:1-2 carries the death penalty for violating the Sabbath yet Jesus allowed the disciples to gather grain and eat it.

    Was that rebellion?

    HankD
     
  10. JesusFan

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    2 different Covenants from the Lord, one was a peculiar relationship between God and his nation isreal, OT, other through God and his people in the Church ,new Covenant...

    Due to Him setting out a nation and people unto Himself under old Covenant, set apart jewish nation with OT Law and rules, but under new Covenant have a brand new relationship with God set up..

    OT letter of the law, NT Spirit of the law

    God though ALWAYS had in Mind the Spirit of law, Grace, else why would He forgive/restore Adam /Eve, and promise the messiah immediatly after their Sin and the fall?
     
  11. webdog

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    The disciples did not violate the Sabbath...they violated the religious "leaders'" interpretation of it. They believed if you even spit on an incline and the spittle ran down to a plant, you were guilty of irrigation.
     
    #11 webdog, Aug 16, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 16, 2011
  12. webdog

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    Wouldn't He have violated the law by doing it? Wouldn't He have needed another accuser besides Himself?
     
  13. JesusFan

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    isn't though Truth in the sense that God has a higher law, that of Love, in play when it comes down to keeping the Law or not?

    That in a sense, love ultimate sense fulfills the law?


    that Love of God even at the fallof adam did not require their physical lives be forfeit, but that God provided them means to be under His grace despite the law?
     
  14. percho

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    I agree fully with freeatlast and it is what went through my mind when I read the OP. They were free to stone her but they were just as guilty as she. The law shows us our sin and all are guilty needing the forgiveness and mercy of God, Jesus extended this forgiveness and mercy to her and told her to go and sin no more. Remember he is the prophet and he was going to die for her.
     
  15. HankD

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    Yes, I know the absurd lengths to which they went: i.e. Is it legal to eat an egg laid on the Sabbath?

    But read the account, Jesus did not deny that the Sabbath was being broken but made the claim that He had authority over the Sabbath.

    Luke 6:1 And it came to pass on the second sabbath after the first, that he went through the corn fields; and his disciples plucked the ears of corn, and did eat, rubbing them in their hands.
    2 And certain of the Pharisees said unto them, Why do ye that which is not lawful to do on the sabbath days?
    3 And Jesus answering them said, Have ye not read so much as this, what David did, when himself was an hungred, and they which were with him;
    4 How he went into the house of God, and did take and eat the shewbread, and gave also to them that were with him; which it is not lawful to eat but for the priests alone?​

    I don't think it was a misinterpretation of the Law on the part of the pharisees webdog but one of Jesus' ultimate authority.

    Mark 2
    27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
    28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.


    Matthew 12
    5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
    6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.
    7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
    8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.​

    They should have know who He was.

    HankD
     
  16. Bronconagurski

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    Jesus' purpose wasn't to condemn the woman.

    John 3:17 (KJV)
    17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

    Luke 19:10 (KJV)
    10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
     
  17. Aaron

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    And they did.
    So it was clear to everybody that what was not to be done outside the Temple, in secular space, was required to be done in holy space, in the Temple itself. When, therefore, Jesus says that something greater than the Temple is here, he can only mean that he and his disciples may do on the Sabbath what they do because they stand in the place of the priests in the Temple: the holy place has shifted, now being formed by the circle made up of the master and his disciples.

    What troubles me, threrfore, is not that the disciples do not obey one of the rules of the Sabbath. That is trivial and beside the point. What captures my attention is Jesus' statement that at stake in their actions is not the Sabbath but the Temple, a truly fresh formulation of matters. His claim, then, concerns not whether or not the Sabbath is to be sanctified, but where and what is the Temple, the place where things are done on the Sabbath that elsewhere are not to be done at all. Not only so, but just as on the Sabbath it is permitted to place on the altar the food that is offered up to God, so Jesus' disciples are permitted to prepare their food on the Sabbath, again a stunning shift indeed.

    . . .

    Jesus does not propose to abolish but to fulfill the Torah, and also, Jesus is lord of the Sabbath. Then in keeping the Sabbath in the way in which Jesus represents it, we fulfill the Torah—in the way in which Jesus means it to be fulfilled. And since his way so radically differs from my way, it is clear that we are hearing different voices from Sinai—he for his part, I for mine. Any other conclusion treats as trivial what is a stunning confrontation the Christ of faith is speaking here.

    . . .

    At issue in the Sabbath is neither keeping nor breaking this one of the Ten Commandments. At issue here as everywhere else is the person of Jesus himself, in Christian language, Jesus Christ. What matters most of all is the simple statement, no one knows the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. There, startling and scarcely a consequence of anything said before or afterward, stands the centerpiece of the Sabbath-teaching: my yoke is easy, I give you rest, the son of man is lord of the Sabbath indeed, because the son of man is now Israel's Sabbath: how we act like God.

    A Rabbi Talks with Jesus. Jacob Neusner​


    Neusner gets the message better than any Christian I know. He just can't believe it. And Jesus wasn't speaking in parables.​
     
  18. Alive in Christ

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    What a WONDERFULL way for Christ to give such a beautifull and memorable "picture" of the soon coming dispensation of the Grace of God!
     
  19. HankD

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    Amazing.

    HankD
     
  20. HankD

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    That was somewhat my point to which you have alluded.

    Alive In Christ, Aaron and others have also shown this from a different point of view.

    The Law and Grace are incompatible because they serve different purposes one unto death the other unto life.

    But even at that they do work together. The Law brings us to Christ in that we realize we are indeed separated from God and flee to Him for life.

    Yes, He gave a few glimpses while He was here in the flesh of the grace to be revealed to Jew and Gentile alike.

    Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.​

    HankD​
     

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