Jesus as Messiah and Lord

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Mark Osgatharp, Aug 11, 2003.

  1. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
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    In the thread titled "Not as pleasing men, but God" Scott Emerson made the following statement:

    "In studying the doctrine of salvation, the idea that Jesus is Lord trumps the idea that Jesus is the Messiah - I'd get into more detail, but church is starting soon!"

    Scott,

    I'd like to hear that "more detail" on this statement.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  2. ScottEmerson

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    Scenario: A missionary is preaching to people in Africa. Witnesses to them about a man named Jesus who laid down His life for them and rose again three days later. He died so they didn't have to.

    Scores of tribesmen accept the gospel message and place Christ as Lord of their life. Not once does the missionary mention the OT prophecies of the Messiah.

    Scenario: In an inner-city project, a group of students spends a week working with some of the poor residents of the community to improve their homes and such. Near the end of the week, the gospel message is presented. A young man around the age of 15 comes up and wants to place Jesus as Lord of his life. He understands that Jesus came to die for his sins and that He rose again. He receives Jesus as Lord.

    Not once is he told about the promise of the Messiah.

    Question: Are these people saved?

    I would answer yes. Placing Jesus as Lord is the requirement for salvation, not the belief that Jesus was the Messiah.

    Would you answer, "no," Mark?
     
  3. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
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    Scott,

    I would say that the scenario of evangelism you have described doesn't fit anything found in the Scriptures. Rather we find that:

    1. All the gospels revolve around the assumption that Jesus is the Messiah promised in the Old Testament.

    2. In Acts we find that when the gospel went out from Israel Jesus was presented to both Jew and Gentile as the Jewish Messiah.

    In some instances (specifically Lystra and Athens) where there were people who apparently (though not certainly) had no knowledge of the Jewish religion, the emphasis turned to God as creator. However, I think we can fairly assume that had these men shown any interest in the message (as they did at Athens) Paul would have further instructed them into both the Messianic, lordship, and sacrificial character of Jesus.

    3. All of the church letters, from Romans to Revelation, assume that the readers had an understanding that Jesus was the Christ. The message of Jesus was so tied to the Old Testament Scriptures that Paul both opened and closed his magnum opus with this thought:

    "Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, (which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures."

    And,

    "Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, but now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets,according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: to God only wise be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen."

    4. The very words "Jesus Christ" mean nothing other than "Jesus Messiah" and therefore it is not possible to believe on "Jesus Christ" without believing He is the Messiah of the Jews.

    5. Even if we were to accept your scenario of ignorant men accepting Jesus as "Lord" without any awareness of His Messianic character, that would have no bearing on the point of discussion which raised this issue - which point was that many modernists/liberals teach that the Old Testament did not promise a Messiah at all.

    These men cannot plead ignorance. They know full well that the New Testament claims Jesus is the promised Messiah. They say they believe in "Jesus Christ."

    And yet they assert (as do many modernist Jews) that the Old Testament never really promised a personal Messiah. They see the Old Testament as nothing more than a pack of Jewish fables. Such men, without question, fall into the condemnation decreed through the apostle John,

    "Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is an anti-christ, that denieth the Father and the Son."

    And as John also records in his gospel,

    "And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins; for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. Then said they unto him, who are thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning."

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  4. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
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    Scott,

    On top of everything else I said, you are mistaken when you say that "placing Jesus as Lord" is the conditon of salvation. Believing in Jesus as Christ is the condition of salvation. When asked, "What must I do to be saved?" Paul answered,

    "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."

    And John said,

    "But these [miracles of Jesus] are written that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name."

    And again,

    "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God."

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  5. Artimaeus

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    To willfully reject ANY part of the truth to begin with is to willfully reject the truth.
     
  6. Me2

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    Recognizing Jesus as Savior and Christ is introductory to a new "baby" convert.

    the concept of Accepting Jesus as "Lord" cancells out the sanctification process which also has trials and persecutions associated with proving the FAITH of the believer.

    accepting Jesus as Lord means that the believer understands the death and resurrection of not only Jesus as he proves to have conquered death and has proven victorious over all. but it also has in its understanding that the believer also has risen from the dead spiritually and has become a living citizen within the kingdom of God.

    where "Jesus is Lord".

    I understand the concept previously posted as a doctrine. which I also see as error. It is falls under the heading of "Lordship Salvation".

    people who advertise such teachings forget that the holy spirit teaches us from a "baby". New converts that do not recognize anything and must be taught step by step the things of God, BY FAITH. and with such education comes the actual "hands on experinces" that comes along with every spiritual lesson.

    that takes a lot of time.
     
  7. HankD

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    Matthew 28:19
    Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

    As Baptists we hold to believer's baptism by immersion in water according to the Trinitarian declaration given to us by Jesus Christ.

    This requires the understanding of the baptizee as to what Christ has done.

    Baptism is the individual's response to Jesus sacrifice. He is proclaiming his belief of what He has done and in whom he has believed.

    Therefore, how can we baptize in the name of the Trinity without the understanding of the baptizee of the Trinity?

    IMO, the deity of Christ must be understood by the individual being baptized.

    If so, then the deity of Jesus Christ TRUMPS everything else.

    "... before Abraham was I am".

    My opinion.

    HankD
     
  8. ScottEmerson

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    So your answer is "No, they are not saved," correct?
     
  9. ScottEmerson

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    And then the question is, can a person believe that Jesus is the Son of God without understanding that He is the Messiah that was promised in the OT?

    I think the answer is yes.
     
  10. Helen

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    folks, God judges the heart. None of us know all the truth. The way a man responds to the truth that he is exposed to is what God judges, not whether or not he knows all the truth.

    Anyone who is born again in Christ will be hungry to read Scripture. He will learn soon enough more of the truth. Who is anyone here to judge his salvation?
     
  11. Pastor Larry

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    Funny how emphasis leads us to directly contradict the teaching of Scripture. Consider the verse that Mark just quoted. It refutes his weak position, but because he did not read carefully or thoughtfully, he has constructed a fautly doctrine.

    "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."

    By simply moving the bold type down two words, we see that Mark's doctrine of soteriology is unbiblical. It is impossible to be saved without accepting that Jesus is Lord. That does not cancel out the sanctification process as Me2 mistakenly suggests. It rather lays the foundation for the santification process.

    As for Messiah, Jesus is the Messiah. That is what "Christ" means. In its biblical usage, it has specific reference to the Jews. A person does not have to understand all the OT prophecies to be saved. However, a person can not reject him as Messiah and still be saved, just as he cannot reject him as Lord. In other words, there is "I'll have him as Savior but not as Lord" when one comes to Jesus. He must believe and accept both who he is as Lord and what he did as Savior in order to be saved.

    So I disagree with Scott. His Messiahship is who he is. Most today don't understand that. I don't think that a full discussion of "Messiah" is necessary for someone to be saved. But they cannot reject it, i.e., there cannot be a knowing rejection of it.

    I disagree with Mark because the verse he quotes disagrees with him. To believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation is to accept and commit to him as Lord and Jesus and Christ.
     
  12. Mark Osgatharp

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    Pastor Larry,

    I don't know if we disagree or not. I do not deny that a man must believe that Jesus is Lord to be saved. A man cannot possibly believe that Jesus is Christ without also believing He is Lord, for Christ is Lord.

    Notwithstanding, believing that Jesus is Lord and Christ is quite a different thing from following Him as Lord in a practical way, or, as Scott put it, placing Christ as Lord of your life. I don't always do that. You don't always do that. No man always does that. If following Him as Lord is a condition of being saved, then we will all burn because none of us do it consistently.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  13. ScottEmerson

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    Actually, we agree. I also do not agree that a full discussion of "Messiah" is necessary for someone to be saved, and a believer in Jesus will never reject Him as the Messiah. My point is that salvation is inferred upon a believer when he makes Jesus Lord of his life, not when he understands Jesus as the fulfillment of the Messsianic prophecies.

    We've agreed a whole lot lately, Pastor Larry. I just had to get out of C/A for awhile to get to that point, I guess! [​IMG]
     
  14. Mark Osgatharp

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    So your answer is "No, they are not saved," correct? </font>[/QUOTE]Scott,

    My answer to that question is an honest "I don't know."

    What I do know is, "Whosoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God." And I do know that a modernist who does know the claim of Jesus to being the Jewish Messiah and does not believe that claim, is a lying anti-christ who neither believes that Jesus is Lord or Christ nor believes in the heavenly Father. For John said,

    "Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is anti-christ, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son the same hath not the Father."

    Can you say "Amen" to that, Scott?

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  15. ScottEmerson

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    The person who openly denies that Jesus is the Christ has no hope of salvation. HOWEVER, as Pastor Larry mentioned, a person can be saved without knowledge of the Messianic passages in the OT or the understanding of Christ's fulfillment. The requirement for salvation is this:

    If you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile--the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

    I cannot comprehend of the person who is saved by the blood of the Lamb who begins to read the passages of Scripture and holds a position that Jesus is not the Messiah. They may disagree about specific passages that may refer to the Messiah as being about another person - I don't have a problem with that. But Jesus himself clearly said in Matthew 26:64 that he was the Messiah.
     
  16. Me2

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    when a new believer makes an alter call..

    what do we understand? That God is God. and we are a sinner against his Law.

    is there any knowledge of Jesus as Christ?.
    (or messiah?)

    we have this urging within to seek after God, yet we dont know where to look. We have a feeling of guilt and that something within our new relationship is lacking between ourselves and our newly found God.

    God the Father is Drawing us to Jesus HIS christ.
    it is then we find that once again the Holy spirit teaches us of His Christ and His propitiator for us and by faith allows us to see that this is a truth
    ...BY FAITH...not by the wisdom of men

    But what of "Lord"..We know God the Creator. We know his son..Our newly discovered sacrifice and Christ (mediator).

    I say this because many men teach that Jesus Is Lord to new believer yet it takes the Holy spirit to teach their spirits and open their eyes and ears of “Faith” to “Know” this to be ABSOLUTE truth.

    this is not a once and for all experience. As is the deposit of Gods Seed within us.

    Acknowledging that Jesus is their Christ is a beginning within the process of Sanctification. It is a process that requires faith and truth. It is learned of the Holy Spirit. This is the baby and child stage as described in hebrews 6 and 1 John 2.

    Lord takes much more wisdom and understanding between the Holy Spirit and the new believer.

    there is a great difference between someone Knowing by faith and having been taught that Jesus is Lord by wisdom and understanding.

    How did Jesus become Lord?.. By displaying his nature. which is love. forgiveness and mercy. by displaying humility Before His Sovereign God.. He lived by the exclusive will of His father and gave his Life for his brothers and sisters..even unto his death.

    this is also a part of the understanding of Accepting Jesus as Lord. To agree that the nature that he displayed and NOW HAS BEEN proven within the life of the believer is true.

    Jesus said if we are to be his disciple. expect persecution. people who would be against our new nature of forgiveness and mercy and love.

    when I meet believers in life, I see that they would actually die for their beliefs that Jesus is their Lord. Its been proven to them beyond doubt by the Holy spirit through wisdom and understanding and persecution.

    As For Jesus being the new believers Christ and Lord spoken at initial alter call.
    We might say the words, yet Jesus as "Our Lord" has to be proven to us beyond a shadow of Doubt before it becomes a reality to us.

    Check out the differences between the child stage and the young man stage in sanctification. we see that the child hasnt overcome the flesh. they havent died to their old spirits influences.
    Which is the spirit of antichrist.
    the law has to do its job. It will kill the flesh and then the new believer can actually move forward by allowing themselves to die to their old nature and be resurrected by the father as Jesus was. thus being "born again" into a spiritual world.

    Between the child and the young man stage is where the childs nature is Proven. This is where they will accept Jesus as their Lord by faith through persection and trial…or fail and fall back into a reprobate lifestyle following the desires of their flesh..which would be to judge and persecute others in return..eye for an eye

    Being risen into new life, is to accept Jesus as their Lord. Expressed through the ability of speech and a display of humilty.

    Interesting thing is, few reach this stage by faith.
    Yet we sure hear a lot of lip service from those who think they have..
    but I see no faith, no mercy, no forgiveness.

    The words “lord, lord” sure sound familiar right about now. What is lacking?

    Yet another declaration of Jesus…many called, few chosen.

    Me2
     

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