Jesus Christ and the Samaritan woman

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by OldRegular, Mar 8, 2005.

  1. OldRegular

    OldRegular
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    Dispensationalist insist that Jesus Christ came to offer some sort of kingdom to the Jews but they rejected it and he established a parenthesis Church instead. Why then did Jesus Christ first reveal Himself as Messiah to a woman from Samaria? [John 4:4-42] Also note the following instructions of Jesus Christ to His disciples:

    Matthew 16:20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
     
  2. av1611jim

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    Because HE is Messiah.
    I think you are a little mixed up.
    Jesus did NOT establish the church instead of the Kingdom, but in addition to it, which was the Plan of God all along. :D
    :rolleyes: As if their rejection caught Him by surprise? :rolleyes:
    In HIS service;
    Jim
     
  3. Pastor Larry

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    I think you have dispensationalism wrongly pegged. The church was not a parenthesis in God's eternal plan. Christ revealed himself to the woman to bring about faith in her life. That is completely irrespective of your first sentence.
     
  4. Bro Tony

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    I too think there is a misunderstanding of dispenstionalism. God was not surprized by the rejection of the Jewish people. The prophet Isaiah said it would be so. God never comes up with an alternate plan, He knows the end from the beginning.

    Dispensationalist don't believe the church is the Kingdom of God, we believe the church is in the Kingdom, but not the entirety of the Kingdom.

    Bro Tony
     
  5. OldRegular

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    When I make the statement that: "Dispensationalist insist that Jesus Christ came to offer some sort of kingdom to the Jews but they rejected it and he established a parenthesis Church instead." I am not expressing my opinion but that of leading dispensationalists as noted in the following paragraphs.

    Dispensationalism denies that the Church is included in prophecy. Rather, the claim is made that Jesus Christ came to establish the Messianic kingdom for the Jews, that they rejected Him, and that He established the Church instead [Herman Hoyt, a dispensationalist, in The Millennium, Four Viewpoints, by Clouse, pages 84-88]. The Church is often referred to as the "mystery parenthesis" form of the Kingdom; mystery in that there is no prophecy in the Old Testament regarding the Church and parenthesis in that God found it necessary to interrupt His program for the Jews because their leaders rejected Jesus Christ as the Messiah and He was unable to establish the Messianic kingdom.

    Lewis Sperry Chafer writes: “In fact, hitherto unrevealed purpose of God in the outcalling of a heavenly people from Jews and Gentiles is so divergent with respect to the divine purpose toward Israel, which purpose preceded it and will yet follow it, that the term parenthetical, commonly employed to describe the new age-purpose, is inacurate. A parenthetical portion sustains some direct or indirect relation to that which goes before or that which follows; but the present age-purpose is not thus related and therefore is more properly termed an intercalculation.” [Systematic Theology, 4:41]

    John F Walvoord writes: “the evidence if interpreted literally leads inevitably to the parenthesis doctrine.” [Millennial Kingdom, 230]

    J Dwight Pentecost writes: “The church is manifestly an interruption of God’s program for Israel.” [Things to Come, 201]

    Charles C. Ryrie writes: “The Church age is not seen in God’s program for Israel. It is an intercalculation.” [Basis of Premillennial Faith, 136]
     
  6. OldRegular

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    The question is: Why did He first reveal His that He was the Messiah to a Samaritan woman but tell His disciples not to reveal that truth?
     
  7. covenant

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    In John 4:22, it says; "...for salvation is of the Jews." The Dictionary says that "the word has the article: the salvation," promised and to be revealed in Christ is "of the Jews" - not belongs to, but proceeds from. (Genesis 12)

    The promise of salvation, and of a Savior, was made to the Jews and is from the Jews and is of the Jews. The means of salvation of the whole world came out of the Jews for the Messiah was a Jew. (Luk 1:69, Luk 1:71, Luk 1:77; Act 13:26, Act 13:47)

    From the Jews, the preaching of the Gospel, and the knowledge of the truth, were to go to all the nations of the world. It was to the Jews that this promise had been given, yet they would soon fall short of that hightest of all honors, and at the most crucial turning point in the history of mankind since the Garden of Eden.

    Prior to this point in history, few among the Gentiles had been called and saved. But, Christ now gives the Samaritans a "hint" of what is shortly to come in full measure, but the good news of salvation to the Gentiles had to be contained until the Messiah had fulfilled all that was spoken of him in the Law and the Prophets. Christ couldn't have brought the Gentiles in until after these things were fulfilled.

    Thus, there was no "parenthesis," but of a "passing of the baton." The Jews were not taken out of the race, they have given the privilege of the firstborn to the sheep of another fold. Will they return? There is the parable of the Prodigal son.
     
  8. Dr. Bob

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    Thanks for the good support Old Reg of these great Bible teachers. Appreciate the quotations. That is classic dispensational teaching.

    So what is sticking in the craw about the Samaritan woman? IS this the first time the kingdom is talked about chronologically, or the first time in John's selected accounts?

    What about Nicodemus in John 3? Or talking about the "king" with the disciples in John 1?

    You're barking at the moon, here.
     
  9. OldRegular

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    The question is: Why then did Jesus Christ first reveal Himself as Messiah to a woman from Samaria? [John 4:4-42] Also note the following instructions of Jesus Christ to His disciples:

    Matthew 16:20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
     
  10. Pastor Larry

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    I got the impression you were expressing it a different way though. These men, to my knowledge, did not believe that the rejection of the kingdom and the subsequent establishment of hte church was some kind of unknown surprise. They believed, as I do and most others, that the church was for long ages known but not revealed to the OT prophets. Therefore, there was no prophecy of it in the OT and it is break in God's plan for Israel. That does not mean it was unplanned for.

    Perhaps I must misunderstood what you were saying.
     
  11. OldRegular

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    I got the impression you were expressing it a different way though. These men, to my knowledge, did not believe that the rejection of the kingdom and the subsequent establishment of hte church was some kind of unknown surprise. They believed, as I do and most others, that the church was for long ages known but not revealed to the OT prophets. Therefore, there was no prophecy of it in the OT and it is break in God's plan for Israel. That does not mean it was unplanned for.

    Perhaps I must misunderstood what you were saying.
    </font>[/QUOTE]I am not sure what you mean by the statement: “They believed, as I do and most others, that the church was for long ages known but not revealed to the OT prophets." However, I take exception to your statement that "most others" follow the dispensational doctrine of the Church.

    I don’t know your particular denominational affiliation but I must first say that if you are Southern Baptist you are in disagreement with the Baptist Faith and Message. The Baptist Faith and Message adopted by the Southern Baptist Convention in Atlanta, Georgia on June 14, 2000 writes of the Church in Section VI as follows: “The New Testament speaks also of the Church as the Body of Christ which includes all the redeemed of all the ages, believers from every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation.”

    I am not sure what you mean by the statement: “They believed, as I do and most others, that the church was for long ages known but not revealed to the OT prophets. “

    I don’t know your particular denominational affiliation but I must first say that if you are Southern Baptist you are in disagreement with the Baptist Faith and Message. The Baptist Faith and Message adopted by the Southern Baptist Convention in Atlanta, Georgia on June 14, 2000 writes of the Church in Section VI as follows: “The New Testament speaks also of the Church as the Body of Christ which includes all the redeemed of all the ages, believers from every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation.”

    However, I will now address directly your contention that there was no prophecy of the Church in the Old Testament.

    The Apostle Peter writes an informative passage as follows:

    1 Peter 1:1-12
    1. Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
    2. Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
    3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
    4. To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
    5. Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
    6. Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
    7. That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
    8. Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
    9. Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
    10. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
    11. Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
    12. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.


    Note particular verses 9-12.

    1. Peter tells us that the prophets enquired and searched diligently. Now who were the prophets and what did they search? We must conclude that he is referring to the prophets of the Old Testament. Obviously they were searching the Scripture of the Old Testament.

    2. What were these prophets searching for or attempting to understand? They were attempting to determine when the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow would occur. Furthermore, these prophets prophesied of the grace that should come unto us, grace that resulted in the salvation of our souls, which is the end of our faith.

    In short the Old Testament tells us of the suffering of Jesus Christ and of His glory to follow and of salvation through grace by faith.

    The above passage from Peter is confirmed by the words of Jesus Christ Himself. We look at the incident of Jesus Christ and the two disciples on the road to Emmaus. Jesus Christ rebukes these disciples saying:

    Luke 24:25-27
    25. Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
    26. Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
    27. And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.


    We look at one additional passage of Scripture concerning Old Testament prophecy, the words of the Apostle Paul.

    Acts 26:22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:

    The Apostle Peter tells us of the Old Testament prophecy concerning the suffering of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ tells us of the Old Testament prophecy concerning the His suffering. The Apostle Paul tells us that he preached none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come.

    Now for what or who did Jesus Christ suffer? Scripture does not leave us in the dark.

    John 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

    1 Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures.

    Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

    We see that Jesus Christ died for our sins and for the Church. We see that the suffering of Jesus Christ for our salvation and His glory was prophesied in the Old Testament. It follows then that the doctrine that there is no prophecy in the Old Testament concerning the Church in its New Testament form is false doctrine.
     

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