Jesus Christ: Did He Ever Save Anyone, Really ?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by pinoybaptist, Mar 3, 2010.

  1. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
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    As far back as I can remember, this C/A stuff has been going on since I joined the BB.
    So much bad blood has been initiated, a lot of words that shouldn't have been said has been said, and all that kind of dung.
    And for what ?
    I think this is all an exercise in futility, because we speak and argue as if Christ has NOT ACCOMPLISHED ANYTHING.
    There is not one poster on this board who does not know the gospel, does not know the events leading to the crucifixion,
    does not know about the virgin birth, or the massacre of innocents by Herod, does not know about the prophecies that were
    fulfilled regarding Christ, His Person, His Deity, His humanity, His death, His Resurrection, and everything that the Bible says
    about Him.
    Many posters on this board have some sort of title written before their names, whether they tack it on to their monickers or not.
    IOW, nobody on this board is ignorant of anything that Christ is and has accomplished, yet we all speak as if Christ were still
    in the process of saving souls, the cross has not happened, the tomb is not empty, and eternal salvation is a legend.

    Fact No. 1 is that Christ FINISHED what He was sent by His Father to do, and what Scriptures says is the reason He shall be
    called Jesus: HE SHALL SAVE HIS PEOPLE FROM THEIR SINS. Matthew 1:21, and I dare anyone, right now, right here, to
    come out and say: NO HE DID NOT FINISH WHAT HE WAS SENT BY HIS FATHER TO DO, and NO HE HASN'T SAVED HIS
    PEOPLE FROM THEIR SINS.
    Any takers ?

    Fact No. 2 is that BY HIS BLOOD HE ENTERED INTO THE HOLY PLACE ONCE FOR ALL, HAVING OBTAINED ETERNAL
    REDEMPTION FOR US. (Hebrews 9:12).
    So I would like those who think this Scripture is not really saying what it is saying to educate this ape man on why the phrase
    having obtained does not mean that the job was or is done.

    Fact no. 3 is that THE TOMB IS EMPTY, in fact, nobody even knows where the tomb is, because where it is is less important
    than its being empty which testifies to the resurrection of a Savior, and one who accomplished His mission, of which the
    resurrection is the testimony. The Scripture says: And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of
    holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: (Romans 1:4).

    If there are no takers, then all agree that (1) Jesus Christ came and accomplished what He was sent by His Father to do.
    Here's where we will more than likely part ways: If He did accomplish what He was sent to do, that is, redeem His people,
    then there is NO MORE REDEEMING THAT IS GOING ON, and there is NO MORE SAVING SOULS FROM THE WRATH OF
    GOD IN ETERNITY going on.

    He IS a SAVIOR of A PEOPLE, and these people are those whom He foreknew, predestined to be conformed to His image,
    called, justified, and glorified (Romans 8:29-30), whose names were written in the Lamb's Book of Life from the foundation of
    the world, and anything else said that will rob Him of His glory in accomplishing what no one is able to accomplish and
    justifying any saving work being done in His Name today is pure semantics and rebellion against Him, or just outright inability
    to rightly divide the word.
    Nothing personal against anyone, but I also say these with no apologies.
     
    #1 pinoybaptist, Mar 3, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 3, 2010
  2. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
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    so, in the scenario where Jesus Christ IS THE Savior-in-fact and not Savior-to-be of a people whom He foreknew, predestined, called, justified, and glorified, then these people were and are elect unto salvation, and there is just no going around it.
    He saved whom He will, He chose them, not them choosing Him, it's done, it's over, and it's a period.
    next event in His calendar is His coming for His own and taking them to glory to His Father's house.
     
  3. kyredneck

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    :) :thumbs: :)
     
  4. OldRegular

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    Bless your pea pikin heart pinoy. You have presented the truth as well as can be done. Sadly it will not change the mind of a single person on this Forum.
     
  5. Winman

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    Then why did Paul risk his life to preach the gospel? He was beaten, stoned, in hunger and thirst, shipwrecked....

    Why?

    If what you believe is true, preaching the gospel is a waste of time, certainly not worth risking one'e life for.

    Acts 20:31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

    Why should Paul warn anyone? The elect will irresistably believe whether he warns them or not, the non-elect cannot possibly believe no matter how much he warns them night and day with tears.

    Why does anyone even need to hear the gospel if what you believe is true? Whether you hear it or not, if you are elect you will be saved and if you are not elect you will perish.
     
  6. Allan

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    The problem isn't with what you are saying, it is the interpretation or meaning of that which is said.

    You wish to apply the aformentioned understandign to the assumption that all the elect are already eternally saved, ie.. born saved.

    You distinquish between eternal salvation (of which the elect are already) and temporally being saved, agreeing and believing what God has said. Yet faith/belief in your understanding has nothing to do with eternal salvation. One might believe or might not but whether they do or not has no bearing on their eternal state.

    I have stated it before and will again, this view concerning eternal salvation (and thus temporal) is not nor has it ever been the position of the church, ever. Thus most don't feel a need to address what has never even been a consideration of the church's doctrine, historically.

    I believe it was for this reason that people are not interacting with your thread. Not a negitive but just an explanation about possibly why you don't have much interaction on it.
     
  7. The Archangel

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    Again, a hideously stupid comment. You know better. You know we don't believe this. You know we are heavily involved in missions.

    Your demonstrated and willful ignorance is almost incomprehensible.

    The Archangel
     
  8. Andy T.

    Andy T.
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    Pinoy,

    Do you believe God saves people through the means of faith?
     
  9. pinoybaptist

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    So, winman, are you the one who will be bold enough to say : NO. JESUS CHRIST DID NOT FINISH HIS WORK, HE SHOULDN'T BE SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, HE COULDN'T HAVE ENTERED INTO THE HOLY PLACE BY HIS BLOOD, BECAUSE HIS BLOOD NEVER PURCHASED ANYONE.
    IT IS ALL A LIE.

    Say it.

    I Dare You.
     
  10. pinoybaptist

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    YES, but not for eternal salvation.
    He saves people who put their trust in Him as their Savior, and calls on His Name, and He saves them from the lies of manmade religion.
    He who believes and is baptized is not to be translated as "you all go out there and help me finish this task, I can't do it alone".
    It means he who believes and is baptized shall be saved in the timely sense.
    This is individual, gospel salvation.
    But as far as their eternal redemption and their eternal salvation, He alone is the Author and Finisher.
    The redeemed's faith does not count for his eternal salvation.
    The redeemed's repentance does not count for his eternal salvation.
    What counts is His blood, His work, His obedience, His faith, His humbling of Himself.
    Sola Kristo Gloria.
    To Christ alone is the glory.
    It is time for us all to cast any crown we think we have won at His feet, and acknowledge that for centuries mainline Christianity, and, yes, mainline Baptists, have preached a FALSE CHRIST.
    The TRUE CHRIST is a redeemer-in-fact.
    He redeemed His people because it was His good pleasure to do so.
    I do not know who His people are, none of us do, but the Bible says He has His people, and NOTHING can change that.
     
  11. pinoybaptist

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    Alan, I have total respect for you, but I beg to differ.
    The reason no one is interacting is because TRUTH is undeniable.
    Many on this board preach Christ in order to get people saved.
    But saved from what ?

    Or better still, if Christ is Savior, who did He save ?
    What all did His hanging on that cross accomplish, what all did that blood spilt accomplish ?
    Nothing according to many theologies.
    In the end His work depended on their missions, their soul-winning, and their obedience.

    And again, for now, forget I adhere to the Doctrine of Grace, and you all answer this challenge.

    STEP UP TO THE PLATE AND SAY : NO, CHRIST'S WORK IS NOT FINISHED.
    HE HAS NO RIGHT TO BE SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER. HE IS NOT SAVIOR AND REDEEMER YET.
     
  12. Andy T.

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    What is the difference between the two?
     
  13. pinoybaptist

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    Maybe, ORB, but I don't care.
    I'm sick and tired of the false wisdoms being sounded out on this board.
    CHRIST REIGNS !!
    HE SAVED HIS PEOPLE ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURES !!
    IT IS DONE, FINISHED, KAPUT.
    NOTHING ADDED, NOTHING TO BE TAKEN AWAY, AND IF THIS IS TRUTH, THAT CHRIST IS SAVIOR-IN-FACT, THEN THERE'S NO GOING AROUND THE EQUAL FACT THAT ALL HE DIED FOR ON THAT CROSS AND SPILT HIS BLOOD FOR, ARE REDEEMED, AND, IN ACCORDANCE WITH HIS OWN STATEMENT, "NONE WILL BE LOST, SAVE THE SON OF PERDITION".
    AND IF THAT IS TRUE, THEN HE SAVED ACCORDING TO HIS WILL, NOT ACCORDING TO ANYONE'S WILL, ACQUIESCENCE, OR EFFORT.

    And another thing, ORB, if that is true, then it is a slap to the face of anyone who wants to think that he has done big things for Christ, won many souls to Christ.

    Cast your crowns at His feet, ye sinners, and know that Christ alone is worthy.
     
  14. pinoybaptist

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    Eternal salvation is all OF Christ.
    It was planned in eternity past, by the Godhead.
    It was predicated simply and only in mercy (Titus 3:5).
    Its way is the cross.
    Its requirement was blood.
    Its demand was the obedience of the Son.
    Its recipients were determined, known and called by names before the foundation of the world, their names jotted down in the Lamb's Book of Life.
    It was accomplished by the Son of God, with no help from anyone, He was alone on that cross.
    It requires nothing of the sinner.
    It benefited all for whom the blood was shed, regardless of where they were, who they were, what their religions were or lack of them.
    It was accomplished for heavenly benefits.
    As far as Christ and His people are concerned, this salvation is done, over.

    Timely salvation is earthy.
    That is why the apostles were sent out, to teach His people of an accomplished and finished salvation.
    Timely salvation demands repentance, faith, and obedience.
    He who claims Christ must justify his faith before men by turning to Christ, trusting in Him and Him only, glorifying Him.
    Timely salvation is for the called out, to an assembly of believers.
    Timely salvation is for earthly blessings which are the natural and not conditional results of obedience.
    Timely salvation benefits many, but not all, for whom it is meant, because not all of God's people will come under gospel instruction, nor display gospel obedience.

    These are the basic differences.

    And, oh, yes, unless one is willing to read the Scriptures with the mindset that there is nothing he can do to get anyone saved, in the eternal sense, and that Jesus Christ did all that redeeming and saving, and from that vantage point
    read Paul and the Epistles, both Pauline and General, and all those scriptures speaking of getting saved, one will always come back to pop theology: repent, have faith, and accept Jesus Christ and you will know you're heaven bound.
    Pop theology is erroneous theology, which deprives Christ of His glory.
     
    #14 pinoybaptist, Mar 3, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 4, 2010
  15. Robert Snow

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    In my 40+ years of being a Christian, I have never heard such a thing as this!

    I believe this is as far from the truth as a person can get. The hoops you jump through to make the bible fit your form of doctrine is amazing!
     
  16. olegig

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    You can rest assured my friend that Jesus' work on the cross is finished and that "whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have eternal life."

    And I have no doubt whatsoever that God is perfectly capable to reach and save every last person whom God knows is receptive to His gospel message.
     
  17. Cypress

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    I am resting and not doubting right there with you Olegig!
     
  18. olegig

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    IMO you have limited those who might respond by mention of "this C/A stuff".

    I have not been here long, but in my short stay I have seen no one of the "A" group who would argue any degree of works required for salvation.
    They may be around, but again, I have not seen them.

    But the fact remains there are strong arguments here; so what is the argument, what is the difference?

    Since it seems to be in vogue to apply label to groups, let us add yet another label. (Ok, ok, I will play the game....)

    There are those here who have never supported, and do not hold to a position of a works based salvation; but neither do they agree with the "C" group.
    Lets give them the label of "B" for Biblicalist and it fits nicely between the two extremes of A & C from a doctrinal standpoint and an alphabetical standpoint.

    The premise of the OP is in the method of salvation for modern man to which most of the B's have little disagreement.
    For the B's also hold to the position of the finished work of Christ on the cross with no further works needed for salvation.
    Therefore, there is very little argument with the OP because the difference between the B's and C's is not in the method of salvation; but to whom it is applied.

    I note in the OP you say:

    He IS a SAVIOR of A PEOPLE, and these people are those whom He foreknew, predestined to be conformed to His image,
    called, justified, and glorified (Romans 8:29-30), whose names were written in the Lamb's Book of Life from the foundation of
    the world,......


    And this is a statement to which most B's have little disagreement.
     
  19. kyredneck

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    ......For our passover also hath been sacrificed, even Christ: 1 Cor 5:7

    On that dreadful night in the land of Egypt, the firstborn child of each household was absolutely 100% totally passive in the events that took place. It was their fathers that killed the lamb and applied the blood to the door posts and the lintels. The firstborn's belief or faith in that blood had absolutely zilch to do with whether the blood worked or not. It was a surety from God then when He seen the blood, He would pass over, and no harm would come.

    On the other hand, that firstborn's faith, or trust in that blood had everything to do with how he rested that night. Therein lies the difference between Eternal and Gospel Salvation.

    Question for any or all:

    What was the land of 'milk and honey' a type of? What does it signify?

    (hate to hit and run, but gotta go for a while)
     
  20. pinoybaptist

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    The very reason as pointed out earlier the Name given to Him is Jesus, is because He shall save His people from their sins.
    How is He going to do it.
    By and with their help ?
    Through their repentance ?
    Through their theology ?
    Through what they have heard in 40 years or more ?
    No.
    He saved them through His own life and blood.

    Perhaps the reason you have not heard of such a thing in all your 40 years is because in every year of those years you heard nothing but what the devil wants preached, and is being preached.
    That Jesus Christ is Savior, yes, thank you, but He can't do it without your consent, and His blood won't take effect unless your justification is by your faith, and His being sovereign God who punishes erring angel who are beings that can do things frail human beings cannot does not feel offended with having you have your own free will to decide what to do with Him.

    Here's what all the saints will be saying in glory, and many of them saying it now:

    Revelation 1:4-6
    John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is , and which was , and which is to come ; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
    And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
    And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

    Revelation 5:9
    And they sung a new song, saying , Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain , and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

    The challenge is still open:

    Deny that Jesus Christ's mission, to save His people from their sins, to redeem them eternally unto Himself, is done, and if it is, then He saved all of His people, from the past to the present to the future and there is no one who can save any more souls He has not already redeemed. No ifs, no buts, no therefores. Therefore, He saved them according to His knowledge of them (Romans 8:29-30) and not their knowledge of Him.

    Anyone willing to step up to the plate ?
    Will you, Mr. Snow ?
     

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