Jesus claimed Moses authored the first 5 books - what do liberals say about this?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Daniel David, Apr 25, 2003.

  1. Daniel David

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    Many liberals have accepted the document theory. Some have rejected that and given the books a later date and a whole new idea of authorship.

    When Jesus walked the earth, he many times referred to Moses as the author.

    Liberals (self-proclaimed and otherwise) usually reject Mosaic authorship. If you do, how do you address what Jesus said to be?
     
  2. David Cooke Jr

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    1st-- Its not just a few "liberals" who reject Mosaic authorship. The overwhelming majority of bible scholars do. Holding to Mosaic authorship is a MINORITY opinion among Christian scholars.
    2nd-- 1) Jesus may not have said Moses was the author. We have to assume the gospels got that part right to think he said exactly that.
    2) When Jesus is quoted in the gospels about Moses and the books of the law, he was not making a point about the dispute of who wrote what, but rather, how he related to the law (by the way, try figuring out what he really said about that issue-the gospels do not agree on this AT ALL).
     
  3. Johnv

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    When Jesus walked the earth, he many times referred to Moses as the author.

    What verses?
     
  4. Wisdom Seeker

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    [ May 26, 2003, 08:40 PM: Message edited by: 3907 ]
     
  5. Dr. Bob

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    Are you serious? I cannot imagine that to be the case. Maybe among all "christians" (and I use that term loosely because I feel many are no more born again than my dog) they are a majority, but we are talking and working with BAPTISTS here.

    More Bible denying, Bible is in error, revisionist liberalism. Let's question "Hath God said?" Where have we heard that lie before?
    . Same old same old. Jesus wasn't talking about Moses authorship so He might have been wrong. What kind of a Savior/Son of God is going around making mistakes? Oops. Maybe Moses DIDN'T . . .

    I would have considered these "ultra-liberal, bible denying, Christ-slamming" language as poor extreme parody if it weren't said as honest opinion. Brother, we REALLY disagree on this!
     
  6. Daniel David

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    John, do a search on a webpage containing verses about Moses in the gospels. I don't have time right now to do it. It is quite extensive though.

    Dr. Bob, you hit the nail on the head. How could the perfect savior be wrong about anything? He said Moses was the author. See, this is a point where the liberals reveal their real bias against Scripture. They really don't believe that "Christ is the criterion by which all Scripture is to be interpreted". If they did, when Christ said something, they would believe it. Now (and this is just Jesus Seminar stuff all over again), David here is questioning whether the gospels even got his quotes right? Is that the best explanation liberals have?
     
  7. Baptist Believer

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    John, I'm surprised at you. It's that passage where Jesus and the disciples are sitting around talking about the authorship of various Old Testament books. (I think it's in Mark 18.) [​IMG]
     
  8. Caretaker

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    The Word of God declares the author of the Pentateuch to be Moses, and God the Word has declared it to be so. Those who deny the Mosaic authorship, deny a great deal of His Word and I find them to have no credibility, and their theology to be corrupt, only deserving to be cast out on the trash heap.

    The deniers must seek to undermine the credibility of His Word, for if God spoke, and Moses wrote, the fools that deny such are confronted with the truth of the Living God who specificly interacts with His creation. They can no longer relegate God to the mythic realm of an obscure hunter/gatherer society, and the evolving mythos and legends which were eventually written down.

    If God spoke, and Moses wrote then Genesis becomes reality. The tower of Babel which these liberal theologians seek to erect is built upon shifting sand and false conjecture by the God deniers.

    Exodus 17:
    14: And the LORD said unto Moses, Write this for a memorial in a book, and rehearse it in the ears of Joshua: for I will utterly put out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven.

    Exodus 24:
    4: And Moses wrote all the words of the LORD, and rose up early in the morning, and builded an altar under the hill, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel.

    Exodus 34:
    27: And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel.

    Numbers 33:
    1: These are the journeys of the children of Israel, which went forth out of the land of Egypt with their armies under the hand of Moses and Aaron.
    2: And Moses wrote their goings out according to their journeys by the commandment of the LORD: and these are their journeys according to their goings out.

    Deut. 31:
    9: And Moses wrote this law, and delivered it unto the priests the sons of Levi, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and unto all the elders of Israel.

    Joshua 1:
    7: Only be thou strong and very courageous, that thou mayest observe to do according to all the law, which Moses my servant commanded thee: turn not from it to the right hand or to the left, that thou mayest prosper whithersoever thou goest.
    8: This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success.

    Joshua 8:
    31: As Moses the servant of the LORD commanded the children of Israel, as it is written in the book of the law of Moses, an altar of whole stones, over which no man hath lift up any iron: and they offered thereon burnt offerings unto the LORD, and sacrificed peace offerings.
    32: And he wrote there upon the stones a copy of the law of Moses, which he wrote in the presence of the children of Israel.
    33: And all Israel, and their elders, and officers, and their judges, stood on this side the ark and on that side before the priests the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, as well the stranger, as he that was born among them; half of them over against mount Gerizim, and half of them over against mount Ebal; as Moses the servant of the LORD had commanded before, that they should bless the people of Israel.
    34: And afterward he read all the words of the law, the blessings and cursings, according to all that is written in the book of the law.
    35: There was not a word of all that Moses commanded, which Joshua read not before all the congregation of Israel, with the women, and the little ones, and the strangers that were conversant among them.


    Matt 19: 7: They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
    8: He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.

    Mark 12:
    26: And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?

    John 1:
    45: Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

    John 5:
    46: For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
    47: But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

    Acts 3:
    22: For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

    Romans 10:
    5: For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.


    A servant of Christ,
    Drew
     
  9. Daniel David

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    Caretaker, that is just the tip of the iceberg.

    You know, I really expected a lot of liberals to participate in this thread. :rolleyes:
     
  10. Artimaeus

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    Caretaker
    Excellent post. It always amazes me the degree to which liberals will go to NOT believe the Bible. They very often say that the Bible is the Word of God but then turn around and deny almost everything it says.
     
  11. HankD

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    I'm surprised that no one mentioned Deuteronomy 34:5-12 where Moses would have to have written his own epitaph.

    I've had this question more than once.

    Who was the human writer of Moses epitaph?

    My answer: It could have been Moses but probably was Joshua, it dove tails right into the Book of Joshua.

    Deuteronomy 34:
    9 And Joshua the son of Nun was full of the spirit of wisdom; for Moses had laid his hands upon him: and the children of Israel hearkened unto him, and did as the LORD commanded Moses.
    10 And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face,
    11 In all the signs and the wonders, which the LORD sent him to do in the land of Egypt to Pharaoh, and to all his servants, and to all his land,
    12 And in all that mighty hand, and in all the great terror which Moses shewed in the sight of all Israel.

    Joshua 1:1 Now after the death of Moses the servant of the LORD it came to pass, that the LORD spake unto Joshua the son of Nun, Moses' minister, saying...

    What do others believe?

    HankD
     
  12. Caretaker

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    Amen Brother Hank!

    I was a bit rushed yesterday, and so did not reference Deut. 34, which is like a post-script, or conclusion to the Pentateuch, and a eulogy to Moses. It was probably Joshua who authored Chp.34.


    Prior to the mid 19th century the Mosaic authorship of the Pentateuch was not in question. The rise of the "higher" schools of Biblical criticism began the degeneration into apostasy, which is so rampant today. Those who deny the validity of scripture are on shifting sand, and leading so many astray.


    A servant of Christ,
    Drew
     
  13. Helen

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    Of the first five books of the Old Testament, the Torah, there is no real doubt that Moses wrote Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. Yes, there are 'editorial comments' possibly inserted by Joshua or his scribe, or even Caleb, but the majority authorship is Moses'.

    Genesis may be another story. It is considered one of Moses' books because he definitely was at least the editor, but the material may well have come into his possession as either Prince of Egypt or later as the leader of the escaping Israelites. Although it does look like Genesis might have some editorial comments inserted by Moses or someone else (Genesis 2:5-6 is an example), there is increasing evidence that Genesis may well be the work of original eyewitness authors, from Adam on.

    1. It presents as eyewitness narratives
    2. Its form differs slightly with each author
    3. Evidence archaeologically indicates that these Genesis writings are compilations of extraordinarily early tablets due to the form which they take.

    I've presented material on this before and don't want to clog up the thread with the long presentations again. However Curt Sewell and, further down on the page, Bryce Self, have explained well about this here:
    http://www.ldolphin.org/tablethy.html

    Liberal interpretations of the Bible which question both authorship and meaning have been around on and off for at least several thousand years. They are based on the desire of man to judge God, at their root. Man depending on man is not a wise idea, but they do seem to value their own wisdom above God's wisdom and above His ability to communicate to us.
     
  14. HankD

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    Another point Helen is that no one really knows all the details of the dialogues that Moses had with the Lord "face-to-face".

    Obviously Moses had some outside material but I believe he compiled/edited a shemitic record (as you indicate) or wrote from memory (aided/guided by the Holy Spirit in either case) from the conversations with the Lord on Sinai, so that it would have those elements which you enumerate.

    My leaning towards Genesis is that it is an account of those things from his conversations with God "face-to-face".

    There is some indication in the the Torah itself that there was perhaps a written record of revelation kept by the Shemites.

    Genesis 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge (mishmer) , my commandments (mitzvah), my statutes (chuqqah), and my laws (Torah).

    HankD
     
  15. Daniel David

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    bump - where did the liberals go?
     
  16. Baptist Believer

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    I don't know. I didn't realize any were participating.
     
  17. Johnv

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    John, I'm surprised at you. It's that passage where Jesus and the disciples are sitting around talking about the authorship of various Old Testament books. (I think it's in Mark 18.)

    Hahah!!! Very funny... Am I the only one who got that?

    The only mention Jesus makes of Moses is in regard to either specific commands, or to the Law of Moses.

    Jesus also mentions of the "Book of Moses". But no where does Jesus say that Moses wrote the Torah.

    It's my personal belief is that Moses instructed the writing of the Torah via scribes, and may even have done some himself. But there's no biblical reason to think that all of the Torah had to be literally penned by Moses' hand. Many of the stories found in the Torah were stories that already existed in Hebrew tradition, such as the works of Genesis 1 and 2. But using Gen1 and 2 as an example, you'll see that the writing styles of the two accounts are different, suggesting a different author (something that can be more easily seen in Hebrew, but is still visible in English). There's nothing biblically that requires that both Gen1 and 2 had to be written by the same author.
     
  18. HankD

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    Nor anything to exclude the possibility of one author, Moses.

    HankD
     
  19. Johnv

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    Nor anything to exclude the possibility of one author, Moses.
    Sure there is. Moses' death is discussed. Therefore, Moses could not have been the sole author. But that aside, I think you miss the point. The matter of Moses writing the Torah should not be a doctrinal issue among baptists.
     
  20. Daniel David

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    Johnv and BB, do a search in the N.T. and find the number of times that Jesus said Moses is the author of the Law.

    It is overwhelmingly stating that Moses is the author.

    Johnv, it should be a doctrine becuase it was important to the Lord to say it over and over again.

    Again, this just smacks the liberal idea that Christ is the criterion by which Scripture is understood. Even when he explicitly says something, the libs don't want to listen.
     

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