Jesus' Destiny, the Cross

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Palatka51, Nov 21, 2007.

  1. Palatka51

    Palatka51
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    The death of Jesus Christ is the fulfillment in history of the very mind and intent of God. There is no place for seeing Jesus Christ as a martyr. His death was not something that happened to Him—something that might have been prevented. His death was the very reason He came.

    What sin of mine did the Son of God take to the cross?

    Galatians 5:19-21
    19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
    20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
    21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

    As we study this I hope to come to an understanding that only one specific sin would need to be taken to the cross. In so doing it would resolve the debt of all the others.
     
  2. David Lamb

    David Lamb
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    I fully agree with the first part of your post, where you say that Jesus came to earth in order to die.

    However, I don't understand the second part. Do you mean that if I had somehow managed to commit just one sin, I would still have needed Jesus to shed His precious blood to save me? (I would agree, for the wages of sin is death, not "the wages of many sins is death") Or are you saying that Jesus just took one of my sins to the cross, as a "representative" of all the others? I don't agree with that. But perhaps you mean something different.
     
  3. Palatka51

    Palatka51
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    Hello David;

    Thank you for replying. I hope to be able to articulate my point to the best of mine limited ability.
    As I look at the life of Jesus He dwelt with every sin that was common to man.
    Hebrews 4:14-16
    14Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
    I am not saying that He did not have to take our sins to the cross but that He (as He walked) showed us how to deal with sin in our lives.
    He forgave the adulteress and told her to go and sin no more. He told the bed ridden lame man that his sins were forgiven and to rise up and walk. All the miracles of healing he did were to show how sin cripples, blinds and makes deaf the lives of men.
    However He went to the cross to finish the one sin that He only could break.
     
  4. David Lamb

    David Lamb
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    Thank you for taking the time to respond. However, I still don't understand what you meant in your earlier post by:
    ....that only one specific sin would need to be taken to the cross. In so doing it would resolve the debt of all the others.

    Nor do I understand what you said at the end of this latest message, when you say:
    However He went to the cross to finish the one sin that He only could break.


    There are plenty of bible verses that tell us that Christ died for His people's sins, not just one sin. Here are just three of them:​
    " For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures," (1Co 15:3)



    " who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father," (Ga 1:4)



    " who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness––by whose stripes you were healed." (1Pe 2:24)



     
  5. Palatka51

    Palatka51
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    The question that I am looking for is, Is it a sin to die? The Bibles tells us so.
    1 Corinthians 15:55-57
    55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
    56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
    57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
    This is the sin He had to commit to be able to vanquish it for us. All of the sins in my OP He did not have to commit nor did He.
    In other words He had to die. He did not have to be a murder to forgive the murderer or an adulterer to for give the adulteress.
    He came to die.
     
  6. Alex Quackenbush

    Alex Quackenbush
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    First, what teacher is teaching this? I have yet to hear this concept taught, that dying is a sin.

    Secondly, and more importantly, you interpretation of this text invalid.
    The writer is describing what sin introduced, death. This is the ultimate price for sin. The sting of sin is death. In other words the ultimate suffering or consequence of sin is death and it is described as a sting. What Christ was doing in dying was not sinning but PAYING a price for sin. The death of Christ was part of the redemptive process, not a sin.

    Thirdly and obviously, to assign to God an act of sin is not just unorthodox and a gross departure from Evangelical doctrine, but it makes God a sinner.
     
  7. npetreley

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    Weird wiggy mojo alert.
     
  8. Palatka51

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    Whats to interpret? It says "The sting of death is sin." Please note that it is Christ who took this sting away and is why Paul says this, 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? For it is 57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

    This is why Jesus asked for the cup to be removed.
    Matt 26:42
    42He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.
    Mark 14:36
    36And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.
    Luke 22:42-44
    42Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. 43And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him. 44And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.
    John 18:11
    11Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?
    That that was without sin, Jesus the Son of God, died. His death was for our sins. I think we agree on this?
    Jesus did not want to die, as the above verses indicate but by all means would do what The Father wanted Him to do.
    Please do not take me wrong and npetreley I want a serious discussion and study here, I do not advocate that Jesus has sinned, God for bid it. He was just as that Scape goat in the OT. He had it all put on Him and had to die to accomplish it. Where as the goat was released in to the wilderness, Christ was released to hell for my sins and even my own sin of deaths sting.
    Did He experience death? Yes
    Did He give up the ghost after saying it is finished? Yes
    Was the sting sin? According to Paul it was.
    Did God turn His back on Him?
    What causes God to turn His back on someone? Sin
    If God had not turned His back on Jesus His Son then Jesus would not have died. But God had mercy on Him,
    Psalm 16:10
    10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
    And in Jonah we see this,
    Jonah 2:6-9
    6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.
    7 When my soul fainted within me I remembered the LORD: and my prayer came in unto thee, into thine holy temple.
    8 They that observe lying vanities forsake their own mercy.
    9 But I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay that that I have vowed. Salvation is of the LORD.
    Christ died and God rose Him up, Salvation is of the LORD.
     
    #8 Palatka51, Nov 25, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 25, 2007
  9. Palatka51

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    Let me address it like this, Jesus did not go to the cross as an Adulterer, He did not go as a fornicator, He did not go to it unclean, He did not represent Him self in lasciviousness, He did not go as an Idolater, witchcraft was not His profession, He did not go with hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envying, He did not go as a murder, nor was He drunk or a reveler.
    Yet He died.
    I am not trying to be argumentative I seek a deeper study of His death. What He had to do and why.
    Death had to be conquered because I could not do it on my on. Nor could I have ever have kept myself from the above sins that He conquered while He was alive.
    He being God could have lived forever in His flesh here proving that death would never touch Him. Yet if He were here today and I were to die there would be no assuring that I would ever live again. His death proves that He has power over it in that He rose from it in victory. Here in lies my assurance.
     
    #9 Palatka51, Nov 25, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 25, 2007
  10. Alex Quackenbush

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    Sure, we all should seek deeper understandings so long as they are proper. The meat of the Word is our call, from childhood to adulthood in our walk. But you are stating DYING is a SIN and Jesus SINNED.

    You are stating something so FOREIGN to orthodox and Evangelical doctrine that it if you heard it from an unsaved man you would protest he is nothing short of...well you fill in the blank.

    To state our Lord sinned in ANY CAPACITY is an error. Dying is the result of sin. And Christ took upon himself our death. Certainly this is not my sum total of a response regarding the doctrine of soteriology, just a very narrow focus in responding to your comments.
     
  11. Palatka51

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    Have I angered you? I sincerely hope not. I beg your forgiveness.
    Did Paul call the sting of death sin?
    Did Paul say in the same verses state that Jesus was victorious over it?
    Did Paul state that the sting of death was taken away by His death?
    This is the sin that only He could bear and conquer. The sinless one took it on Himself, I the sinner should have taken it and should never live again. He instead took it and brought His body back to life. Something you nor I could ever do.
    Amen Brother, and His death is the result of our sin. His resurrection is the result of His sinlessness even though He bore our death/sin.:godisgood:
     
  12. Alex Quackenbush

    Alex Quackenbush
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    First no, you haven't and it would be irrelevant anyway. Simply because a person presses a point shouldn't be a cause for interpreting some negative disposition. As for my point, earlier you made the statement that Jesus committed a sin. Again, that is not just a mild error but a very very immediate and extreme departure from Evangelical and Orthodox doctrine.
     
  13. swaimj

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    Dying is the result of sin. That is what the statement "the sting of death is sin" means. The scriptures state plainly that Jesus was tempted in all points as we are, yet without sin. If Jesus' dying was a sin, then he was not without sin and he cannot be our saviour because he is disqualified.
     
  14. Palatka51

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    Am I in error stating that Jesus died?
    Am I in error in quoting Paul in regards to the sting of death?
    Am I in error for stating that His death takes the sting away from all of us?
    If Christ did not bear the sting wherefore is it's conquerer? Some one took it away and it sure was not I.
     
  15. Palatka51

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    Then what did he have to die for?
    Both you and Alex are missing my point. Jesus was without sin but like that scapegoat He bore our sin by dying. There was no other way for that sin to be borne, and there is no other who could bear it.
    Where is my error?
    I really want to know?
     
    #15 Palatka51, Nov 25, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 25, 2007
  16. Alex Quackenbush

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    Palatka, how many times do I have to say this? YOU are in error in stating that JESUS SINNED. Got it?
     
  17. swaimj

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    I have no problem with this statement. However, this statement is different from this one that you made earlier:
    This statement I disagree with because it is NOT a sin to die. Rather, death is the consequence of sin. Jesus experienced the consequence of sin on our behalf, but he himself was without sin. We deserve to die because we are sinners. Jesus did not deserve to die because he was not a sinner.
     
  18. Alex Quackenbush

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    Okay here is your error:

    You here are stating the JESUS SINNED. That is your error.
     
  19. Palatka51

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    I stand corrected and regret this choice of words. Rather should have said This is the sin He had to bear......
    Hope this clears it up. But the sting of death is sin and to say other wise is to rearrange scripture.b
     
  20. Alex Quackenbush

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    Phew...okay. Thanks. With that we are in agreement.
     

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