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Jesus died for you

Discussion in 'Polls Forum' started by Psalm 95, Apr 5, 2008.

?
  1. Yes

    32 vote(s)
    82.1%
  2. No

    4 vote(s)
    10.3%
  3. Other

    3 vote(s)
    7.7%
  1. Gwyneth

    Gwyneth <img src=/gwyneth.gif>

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    with respect, , "Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners" (as quoted above) - are we not all sinners (none righteous, not one), and therefore, did He not come to save us all? Those that will not accept this gift will not be saved , and that is their choice(free will).......... but the offer of salvation is there for all. .... the price is paid for all of mankind.......IMHO -the sheep are those who have accepted the gift of salvation and follow Him.
     
    #41 Gwyneth, Apr 11, 2008
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  2. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    If the price has been paid for all , then the penalty has been exacted , complete forgiveness has been inacted -- hence all are saved .

    Willpower is exalted in many Christian circles . But the Bible is replete with passages that speak of the enslavement of the will because folks are bound in sin . The Lord has to intervene and set the ones of His choosing free from that prisonhouse .
     
  3. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    This has been explained to you so many times, yet you continue to hold onto how you want to define the atonement.
     
  4. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Yes , I want to continue to hold on to how I want to define the atonement --- the scriptural view . And you want to hold on to what you think the atonement is -- your understanding of what the Bible teaches .
     
  5. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Reverse that order, and you are on to something.
     
  6. Tentmaker

    Tentmaker <img src=/tentmaker.gif>
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    That's half the Gospel. The other half - Hallelujah He arose!!!!
     
  7. Jon-Marc

    Jon-Marc New Member

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    So then all unrepentant serial killers, child molesters, rapists, and all unrepentant sinners who have died are in heaven because Christ died for them? It doesn't work that way. We are told that there has to be repentance, and most do not repent of their wickedness. Christ died for everyone, but not everyone will repent and accept Him. So NO, everyone is NOT saved. In fact there are so few on the road to heaven that is described as a "narrow way". On the other hand, the road to destruction is described as "broad".

    "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be that go thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." Matt. 7:13,14

    It says that many are on the road to destruction, but few are on the road to life eternal. Salvation is a gift from God--paid for by the blood of His Son, but like any gift it has to be accepted. It was bought for ALL, but not all will accept that free gift.
     
    #47 Jon-Marc, Apr 12, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 12, 2008
  8. standingfirminChrist

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    Notice also, few find that road. God did not place them on that road. They have to choose.
     
  9. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    You haven't been reading my posts very carefully . I certainly do not believe that Christ's sacrifice was for all in the sense of each and every person -- past , present and future . I was pointing out the silliness of the view . His cross-work was only for the elect .
     
  10. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    I agree with each and every statement above . As a matter of fact Matthew 7 was today's text at church . AMEN .
     
  11. standingfirminChrist

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    Your stance that the work of the cross was 'only for the elect' flies in the face of Scripture. Scripture declares that Christ died for all men, not just the elect.

    It is not just the elect who are in Christ. Paul calls many 'faithful brethren' 'saints' and 'believers' saved and never refers to them as elect. One's he refers to as elect are clearly elected to a specific service for the edification of the Body of Christ.

    It is arrogant to think Christ died only for the elect when Scripture clearly declares otherwise.
     
  12. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    However, the Scripture also states that no one can come to the Son unless the Father draws him - so it is not a false gospel. God is the one who touches hearts. Otherwise man CANNOT choose God in his sickened, sinful state.

    I'm just looking at Systematic Theology by Wayne Grudem, and here's what he says on the Atonement (I'm not going to type all points out but I'll give you the outline headings):

    D. The Extent of the Atonement
    1. Scripture passages used to support the Reformed view.
    2. Scripture passages used to support the non-Reformed View (general redemption or unlimited atonement).
    3. Some points of agreement and some conclusions about disputed texts:

    It would be helpful first to list the points on which both sides agree:
    1. Not all will be saved.
    2. A free offer of the gospel can rightly be made to every person ever born. It is completely true that "whoever will" may come to Christ for salvation, and no one who comes to Him will be turned away. This free offer of the gospel is extended in good faith to every person.
    3. All agree that Christ's death in itself, because He is the infinite Son of God, has infinite merit and in itself sufficient to pay the penalty of the sins of as many or as few as the Father and Son decreed. The question is not about the intrinsic merits of Christ's sufferings and death, but about the number of people for whom the Father and the Son thought Christ's death to be sufficient payment at the time Christ died.
    Beyond these points of agreement, however, a difference remains concerning the following question: "When Christ died, did he actually pay the penalty only for the sins of those who would believe in Him, or for the sins of every person who ever lived?" On this question it seems that those who hold to particular redemption have stronger arguments on their side. First, an important point that is not generally answered by advocates of the general redemption view is that people who are eternally condemned to hell suffer the penalty for all of their own sins, and therefore their penalty could not have been fully taken by Christ. Those who hold the general redemption view sometimes answer that people suffer in hell because of the sin of rejecting Christ, even though their other sins were paid for. But this is hardly a satisfactory position, for (1) some have never rejected Christ because they have never heard of him, and (2) the emphasis of Scripture when it speaks of eternal punishment is not on the fact that the people suffer because they have rejected Christ, but ont he fact that they suffer because of their own sins in this life (see Rom. 5:6-8, 13-16, et al.). This significant point seems to tip the argument decisively in favor of the particular redemption position.
    Another significant point in favor of particular redemption is the fact that Christ completely earned our salvation, paying the penalty for all our sins. He did not just redeem us potentially, but actually redeemed us as individuals whom he loved. A third weighty point in favor of particular redemption is that there is eternal unity in the counsels and plans of God in the work of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in accomplishing their plans (see Rom. 8:28-30).


    He then goes into answering the Scriptures in the next paragraphs: (John 1:29, 2 Cor,. 5:19, John 6:51, John 2:2, 1 Tim. 2:6, Heb 2:9, Rom. 14:15, 1 Cor. 8:11)

    He then states: "In conclusion, it seems to me that the Reformed position of "particular redemption" is most consistent with the overall teaching of Scripture. But once that has been said, several points of caution need to be raised.
    4. Points of clarification and caution regarding this doctrine.

    If you guys want me to type out any particular section that I just put in the heading, let me know. I'll try to do it tonight (I need to get ready for church before I'm late.) :)
     
  13. standingfirminChrist

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    Christ is faithful to His promises, annsni. He said if He was lifted up on that cross as the serpent was lifted up in the wilderness, He would draw ALL, not some, men unto Himself.

    He has been drawing all men since the cross to present time just as He promised.

    I will add that Wayne Grudem is wrong. The sinner who rejected Christ and is in hell chose hell as his destination. He made his bed so to speak. Christ paid the sin debt for that man too. The man went to hell, not for his sins, they were paid for at Calvary... He went to hell because of his rejection of Christ.
     
    #53 standingfirminChrist, Apr 13, 2008
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2008
  14. standingfirminChrist

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    Hebrews 9:24-26 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

    Christ put away the sin debt when He presented Himself as the sacrifice needed. The debt was paid "Once For All."
     
  15. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    No one is arguing against the scriptural fact that the sin debt was paid once and for all . The point of contention is for whom was it paid ? And the biblical evidence is that Christ's sacrifice was intended specifically for the elect alone .
     
  16. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Your view is not biblical . One goes to Hell for their sins . One going to Hell never had their sins paid for . Rejecting Christ is sinful for those who have heard the Gospel . But they deserve Hell because of their collective sins . ( Even one brings condemnation .)

    Those who have never heard of Christ or the Gospel certainly do not go to perdition for rejecting Christ -- it's their sins .
     
  17. standingfirminChrist

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    Hebrews 9:24-26 refutes the claim that Christ did not die for those who will go to hell. His blood was the sacrifice for all, not some.

    Romans 1 declares that all are aware of the Godhead, so all have knowledge of Christ.
     
  18. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    I have a couple of minutes to type out the section "Scripture Passages Used to Support the Reformed View" from Systematic Theology by Wayne Grudem (from chapter 27, The Atonement)

    "Several Scripture passages speak of the fact that Christ died for his people. "The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep" (John 10:11). "I lay down my life for the sheep" (John 10:15). Paul speaks of "the church of God which he obtained with the blood of his own Son" (Acts 20:28). He also says, "He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, will he not also give us all things with him?" (Romans 8:32). This passage indicates a connection between God's purpose in giving up his Son "for us all" and giving us "all things" that pertain to salvation as well. In the next sentence Paul clearly limits the application of this to those who will be saved because he says "Who shall bring any charge against God's elect?" (Rom. 8:33) and in the next verse mentions Christ's death as a reason why no one shall bring a charge against the elect (8:34). In another passage, Paul says, "Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her" (Eph. 5:25).
    Moreover, Christ during his earthly ministry is aware of a group of people whom the Father has given to him. "All that the Father gives me will come to me; and him who comes to me I will not cast out...this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day" (John 6:37-39). He also says, I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours" (John 17:9). He then goes on from this specific reference to the disciples to say, "I do not pray for these only but also for those who believe in me through their word" (John 17:20).
    Finally, some passages speak of a definite transaction between the Father and the Son when Christ died, a transaction that had specific reference to those who would believe. For example, Paul says, "God showed his love for us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us" (Rom. 5:8). He adds, "For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. (Rom. 5:10) This reconciliation to God occurred with respect to the specific people who would be saved, and it occurred "while we were enemies." Similarly, Paul says, "For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that hin him we might become the righteousness of God" (2 Cor. 5:21; cf. Gal 1:4; Eph 1:7). And "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us" (Gal. 3:13)
    Further support for the Reformed view is found in the consideration that all the blessings of salvation, including faith, repentance and all of the works of the Holy Spirit in applying redemption, were also secured by Christ's redemptive work specifically for his people. Those for whom he earned forgivenenss also have had those other benefits earned for them (cf. Eph 1:3-4; 2:8; Phil 1:29).
    What I have called "the Reformed view" in this section is commonly referred to as "limited atonement." However, most theologians who hold this position today do not prefer the term "limited atonement" because it is so easily subject to misunderstanding, as if this view somehow held that Christ's atoning work was deficient in some way. The term that is usually preferred is particular redemption, since this view holds that Christ died for particular people (specifically, those who would be saved and whom he came to redeem), that he foreknew each one of them individually (cf. Eph 1:3-5) and had them individually in mind in his atoning work.
    The opposite position, that Christ's death actually paid for the sins of all people who ever lived, is called "general redemption" or "unlimited atonement."
     
  19. standingfirminChrist

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    Paul clearly states that God does not choose some to go to heaven others to go to hell.

    KJV 2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

    It is the god of this world blinding the minds of unbelievers, not God Himself.

    If the god of this world was not blinding the eyes of them, they would see the light of the glorious gospel of Jesus Christ.

    God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. That is why He sent His only begotten Son into the world. Christ's death on the cross paid the sin debt for all, not just the elect. But the god of this world blinds them from accepting this wonderful gift of eternal life.

    KJV John 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
     
  20. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    So let me understand your take:

    Jesus died for the sins of the world. So all sins are paid for.

    Man denies God and thus go to hell.

    Man denies God because Satan is blinding them.

    God wishes that none would perish but there are those who are blinded by Satan so they will go to hell even if God doesn't want them to.

    Thus Satan is stronger than God.
     
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