Jesus/God in Hell?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by billwald, Jun 16, 2012.

  1. billwald

    billwald
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    syl·lo·gism/ˈsiləˌjizəm/
    Noun:
    An instance of a form of reasoning in which a conclusion is drawn from two given or assumed propositions (premises); a common or middle...
    Deductive reasoning as distinct from induction.
    More info »Wikipedia - Dictionary.com - Answers.com - Merriam-Webster

    Another thread proposed the following syllogism:

    1. God is omnipresent.
    2. Jesus is God
    3. Thus Jesus is omnipresent.

    But then Jesus is with God in Hell, as the Bible teaches.

    Further, it blows the hypothesis that God can not tolerate "being with" the unrighteous (in heaven) because God and Jesus are with the unrighteous in Hell.

    Or is God/Jesus a "respecter of some places" like the person who thinks Mormons will contaminate his house but doesn't mind working along side them in his place of employment?
     
  2. The Biblicist

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    Psa. 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
     
  3. Yeshua1

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    The Lord is present there, but NOT in the sense that he is known/seen/perceived/relationship wise with those in hell...

    be like here on earth, know God is here, but we cannot perceive him apart from having a personal relationship with Him!

    or like the Spirit not always striving with men...

    he is still there, but NOT directly dealing with them any more!
     
  4. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    Good point! The manifestation of his presence in heaven but He can be present elsewhere without like manifestation.
     
  5. billwald

    billwald
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    Spying on the bad guys like a heavenly CIA/NSA. <G>
     
  6. Tom Butler

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    The King James version translates "place of the dead" as Hell. Jesus' place of the dead was in the tomb.
     
  7. Michael Wrenn

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    So, what do you do with 1 Peter 3:19?
     
  8. The Biblicist

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    I believe Sheol is the place of the dead. Lower sheol is the place of the dead spirits whereas upper sheol is the place of the dead body. All the bodies of the saints go to upper sheol - the grave, but none of the spirits of the saints go to lower sheol.
     
  9. The Biblicist

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    This was taken from the study footnotes in the Landmark Edition of the King James New Testament on 1 Peter 3:19:

    "The contextual theme has been the contrast between suffering justly for sins versus suffering unjustly (1 Pet. 3:14-17). Peter brings both aspects together in the Person of Jesus Christ as the supreme example of the just suffering both justly and unjustly. Christ's death was at the hands of his enemies and thus he suffered unjustly because he did not deserve their hatred and killing. On the other hand, in his representative capacity, Christ suffered justly for the unjust. The Holy Spirit
    justified both Christ and the elect by resurrecting Christ from the dead (Rom. 1:4; 4:25).

    Peter reinforces this supreme example of Christ by supporting it with two types. The first is from the Old Testament in connection with Noah and the second is believer's immersion. The first example is the flood, which is probably the greatest Old Testament example of the unjust suffering justly for their sins. These spirits are now waiting in prison (hades) for final judgment to determine their eternal just sufferings because they rejected the gospel preached (2 Pet. 2:5; Acts 10:43) to them by the Spirit of Christ in Noah (1 Pet. 1:11). In contrast, Noah was vindicated and saved "by water" from the same judgment. The preposition "by" translates the Greek "dia" which in this context conveys the idea of "through" or "by means of" water. The water was used by God to lift up the ark above the death and destruction that engulfed the world. The "eight" were in the ark before a drop of water fell from the sky or came up from the deep. So beleivers are in Christ by faith before a drop of water touches them in immersion. The lifting up of the ark "through" or "by means of" water provided an Old Testament figure of the resurrection of Jesus Christ in his representative capacity with all the elect "in Christ."

    Hence, this is a figure of salvation provided by the use of water. The very water that imposed death and judgment upon the ungodly was the very water that lifted those in the ark to safety. The very death imposed upon the ungodly
    was the very death Christ suffered, "the just for the unjust that He might bring us to God."

    Another figure that corresponds ("like" figure, Gr. antitupos) with the ark through the use of water is immersion of the believer. In believer's immersion we are figuratively and declaratively publicly identified, positionally, "in Christ," in his death, burial and resurrection (Rom. 6:4-5). However, in both uses of water (ark and believer's immersion) the emphasis falls on the figure of Christ's resurrection as it is His resurrection that introduces both figures in verse 18, and concludes these figures in verse 21 and the final words "by the resurrection of Jesus
    Christ." Hence, immersion in water is a "like," or a corresponding figure to, the lifting up of the Ark "by water," and both present figuratively "the resurrection of Jesus Christ."
     
  10. Tom Butler

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    Good question. There are several views. One is that the spirits are fallen angels. That still leaves unanswered the question of what Jesus preached. Certainly not the gospel. And I doubt he was taunting them. But these are not humans in Hell, according to this view.

    Another view is that Jesus spoke through Noah to the pre-flood hearers.

    John Gill's view is interesting, and one which makes the most sense to me.
     
    #10 Tom Butler, Jun 16, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 16, 2012
  11. Michael Wrenn

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    Yes, Tom, I'm aware there are several views, and I appreciate your presenting three of them, especially Gill's which is indeed interesting.

    Things like this prove that there is a lot we don't know and never will, but I still like trying to figure things out. I am always looking for more knowledge and evidence.
     
  12. Moriah

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    There were those who disobeyed and died before Jesus came to earth, though they were dead their spirits went to a prison, unlike the spirits of the righteous.
    After Jesus was crucified, he preached to those who were dead, he preached to the spirits in prison, the spirits of those who had died and disobeyed long ago (see 1 Peter 3:18-19).
    Those people who disobeyed and died before learning of Jesus...Jesus preached the gospel to them, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit (1 Peter 4:5-6). For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring us to God, even those who lived and died before Jesus.

    Soul sleep believers falsely teach that the spirits in prison that Jesus preached the gospel to are not spirits of men, that they are fallen angels.
    1 Peter 4:6 For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.
    However, the scriptures say Jesus preached to those who are now dead. Angels do not die. Furthermore, why would those angels live according to God concerning the spirit? The angels who left their post do not have another chance at salvation. God does not give salvation to disobeying angels, only to humans.
     
  13. Michael Wrenn

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    Very thoughtful post there.
     
  14. Steadfast Fred

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    Those to whom Jesus preached to in prison were not every person who lived and died prior to the cross.

    1 Peter 3 is clear as to who He preached to... the disobedient of Noah's day... specifically those who were disobedient during the period of time that the ark was being built.
     
  15. Michael Wrenn

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    Okay, I may regret this, but here goes: I believe you make a valid point. So what do you think was the purpose of His preaching to them?
     
  16. Steadfast Fred

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    To warn them of judgment.
     
  17. Michael Wrenn

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    You don't think they were already aware of that, considering where they were?
     
  18. Fred's Wife

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    To clarify further:

    Things Hard to be Understood
    1 Peter 3:18-20


    “For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.” – 1 Peter 3:18-20

    The following is by the late Pastor Nick Michalinos, Austin Avenue Baptist Church, Pasadena, Texas:

    “Some have the idea that Christ, between His death on the cross and His resurrection three days later, went and preached to lost spirits who were imprisoned in the spirit underworld. However, this is not what these verses teach. The word ‘prison’ is used with regard to the spiritual realm (see Revelation 20:3,7, Satan’s ‘prison’), the unseen spirit world, the Hadean world (Luke 16:23-31) where lost spirits reside and are reserved unto ‘the day of judgment to be punished’ (2 Peter 2:9; Revelation 20:13-14).

    “When was this preaching done? Our text states, ‘in the days of Noah…’ This occurred just before the flood. Christ did not go down to Hades and preach the gospel to ‘spirits in prison.’ The preaching was done in ‘the days of Noah.’

    “Who did the preaching in that day? By continuing the flow of thought from 1 Peter 3:18 into verse 19 we see that ‘Christ … by the Spirit … went and preached.’ We are told in Genesis 6:3, ‘And My Spirit shall not always strive with man.’ From this we can see that Christ through the Holy Spirit was striving with the people just before the flood. He used the ‘preaching’ of Noah, who was ‘a preacher of righteousness’ (2 Peter 2:5). So we have Christ sending the Spirit, and the Spirit spoke through a human instrument, Noah, and Noah preached to the people.

    “What was the response to the Spirit’s striving through Noah’s preaching? It is said they were “disobedient” (1 Peter 3:20). They resisted the Spirit (Acts 7:51).”

    See also commentary on 1 Peter 4:6.

    Things Hard to be Understood
    1 Peter 4:6


    “For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.” – 1 Peter 4:6

    “You notice it doesn’t say the men who were dead. It says it was preached to them that are dead. The meaning is that those that are now dead had the Gospel preached to them while they were yet living. The third chapter of 1 Peter has something on practically the same subject, verses 18,19, and 20: ‘For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.’ The answer is that Christ went in His Spirit--—the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of God--—the Holy Spirit, and preached through Noah in the days before the flood to those who now are spirits in prison. It does not mean that He has gone to them since they entered the prison and preached there to them. There is mystery about these passages, but this seems to be the true explanation” (William L. Pettingill).
     
  19. Steadfast Fred

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    The “spirits” (pneumasin, a term usually applied to supernatural beings but also used at least once to refer to human “spirits”; cf. Heb. 12:23) are described in 1 Peter 3:20 as those who were disobedient when God waited patiently for Noah to finish building the ark. They had rebelled against the message of God during the 120 years the ark was being built. God declared He would not tolerate people’s wickedness forever, but would extend His patience for only 120 more years (Gen. 6:3). Since the entire human race except Noah (Gen. 6:5-9) was evil, God determined to “wipe mankind… from the face of the earth.” The “spirits” referred to in 1 Peter 3:20 are probably the souls of the evil human race that existed in the days of Noah. Those “spirits” are now “in prison” awaiting the final judgment of God at the end of the Age.

    The problem remains as to when Christ preached to these “spirits.” Peter’s explanation of the resurrection of Christ (3:18) “by the Spirit” brought to mind that the preincarnate Christ was actually in Noah, ministering through him, by means of the Holy Spirit. Peter (1:11) referred to the “Spirit of Christ” in the Old Testament prophets. Later he described Noah as “a preacher of righteousness” (2 Peter 2:5). The Spirit of Christ preached through Noah to the ungodly humans who, at the time of Peter’s writing, were “spirits in prison” awaiting final judgment.

    This interpretation seems to fit the general theme of this section (1 Peter 3:13-22)—keeping a good conscience in unjust persecution. Noah is presented as an example of one who committed himself to a course of action for the sake of a clear conscience before God, though it meant enduring harsh ridicule. Noah did not fear men but obeyed God and proclaimed His message. Noah’s reward for keeping a clear conscience in unjust suffering was the salvation of himself and his family, who were saved through water, being brought safely through the Flood. -- The Bible Knowledge Commentary; Quickverse Platinum 2010
     
    #19 Steadfast Fred, Jun 17, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 17, 2012
  20. Michael Wrenn

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    I won't say that his interpretation is not a valid one, but I think it requires a certain wresting of the scripture to maintain it. Yes, Noah is mentioned in those verses, but it does not say that Christ preached through Noah to those people in Noah's day.

    It is indeed a somewhat hard to understand passage, but reading into the scripture what is not there doesn't help.
     
    #20 Michael Wrenn, Jun 17, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 17, 2012

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