Jesus is only Spirit?

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by trying2understand, Nov 20, 2003.

  1. trying2understand

    trying2understand
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    In another thread, john6:63 has taken the position that because Jesus is no longer on earth, He is only Spirit (no longer flesh).

    Is this a Baptist belief?

    When Jesus ascended into Heaven, did He cease to be True God and True Man?
     
  2. DHK

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    Acts 1:9-11 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

    Acts 7:55-56 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

    1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

    Jesus remains in His body: perfect man and perfect God. He sits at the right hand of God the Father, ever making intercession for us. He stood for Stephen, when Stephen was martyred. The disciples saw him ascend into Heaven. We shall see him come again in the same way that He went up. When we get to Heaven we shall be like Him; not in Spirit--but in body. We shall see Him as He is. We shall be like Him. He is perfect man and perfect God, and always will be. The Bible does not teach that anything other than that will change.
    DHK
     
  3. Johnv

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    The Baptist distinctives don't touch onthe topic. Hence, I'd venture to say that some Baptists agree with it, and some don't, which is their right. My 2 cents is, since Jesus was ascended body and soul, that Jesus is body and soul. But that is sheer speculation based on a biblical assumption on my part.
     
  4. MikeS

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    Or, as I've heard it put, did Jesus take off His man-suit? How much more amazing is the truth, that Jesus didn't just "play" at being man, but changed His nature to incorporate True Man for all eternity, for the sake of His wayward children. [​IMG]
     
  5. john6:63

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    I was quoting John 4:24
    Somehow T2U connected Jesus with that. I only replied saying that Jesus was no longer dewling among us in the flesh.

    Here’s the exact quote from me and link to the forum:
    http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=28;t=002125;p=3
     
  6. trying2understand

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    Somehow T2U connected Jesus with that. I only replied saying that Jesus was no longer dewling among us in the flesh.

    Here’s the exact quote from me and link to the forum:
    http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=28;t=002125;p=3
    </font>[/QUOTE]You seem to be saying that I am mistaken in my understanding of your words.

    If that is so, I apologize for my error.

    Now, could you set the record straight for me?

    Am I mistaken, or do you believe that Jesus is no longer both Flesh and Spirit now that He has ascended into Heaven?
     
  7. john6:63

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    I’m still not sure how John 4:24 can confuse someone, but I may have not clearly explained my answer and you took it the wrong way. In any event, apology accepted, no hard feelings on my part.

    I believe as John 1:14 says, that the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. I believe Jesus was the third person to have bodily ascended into Heaven. Moses and Enoch being the only other two. And I believe in the Christian doctrine that God exists as a unity of three distinct persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Each of the persons is distinct from the other, yet related in essence.

    Hope that answered your question.
     
  8. trying2understand

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    Great! [​IMG]

    But is Jesus still both Flesh and Spirit now in Heaven?

    Sorry for being so dense.
     
  9. john6:63

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    Since Jesus bodily ascended in to Heaven, yes, Jesus is still flesh, in my opinion.

    Is Jesus Spirit? No, Jesus is not the same person as the Father. In the Christian doctrine of the Trinity there are three persons in the Godhead: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Each has a will, speaks, loves, is self aware, and is aware of others. Yet, Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8; 45:5,14,18,21,22, teaches that there is only one God. Therefore; the person of the Son is not the same person as the Father. They speak to each other and have their own wills. See Matt. 3:17 and Luke 22:42.

    Now, Oneness Pentecostals claim that there is only one person in the Godhead and that being Jesus Christ. This is an error. They teach that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all the same person, only different in manifestation. The correct doctrine is that there is only one God who is three persons: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Each is not the same person as the other. Yet, there are not three gods, only one.

    Hence my analogy of Water, Ice and Steam, each of these is distinct from the other, yet related in essence.
     
  10. trying2understand

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    Since Jesus bodily ascended in to Heaven, yes, Jesus is still flesh, in my opinion.

    Is Jesus Spirit? No, Jesus is not the same person as the Father. </font>[/QUOTE]Jesus is only Flesh? :confused:

    Jesus is not Spirit and Flesh? :confused:
     
  11. john6:63

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    I seems to me you’re having problems understanding or grasping the Christian doctrine of the Trinity. I don’t know how else to explain it, than what I’ve already done in my above post.

    Maybe you should ask your priest; maybe he can better explain it to you.
     
  12. trying2understand

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    This is not about the Trinity.

    This is about the nature of the Person of the Trinity, that is fully God, that is the Son of God, that was made Flesh, and that ascended to Heaven and sits at the right hand of the Father.

    Here are your choices as I see it.

    Following His ascention into Heaven:

    1. Jesus is only Spirit
    2. Jesus is only Flesh
    3. Jesus is both Spirit and Flesh

    Which do you say it is?
     
  13. SpiritualMadMan

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    While I don't understand all the theological implications it seem clear to me that Jesus was 'Physical' after the resurrection.

    Luke's account of the ascension states clearly that Jesus was 'alive'. But, admittedly, goes no further.

    However, given the Physical Proofs of Luke's Gospel it would seem plausible that the same thinking towards being alive would also carry through in Luke's Writings in Acts.

    Some may protest that a physical being can not transit the Spiritual Realms.

    To which I ask, from what empirical evidence to do you base that assumption?

    When Jesus suddenly appeared behind locks doors and was shown to be a Physical Being, He obviously had to transit some other 'dimension' to get there without destroying the locked door!

    Some Pentecostals hold that the Spiritual Dimension is a superset that contains, as a subset, the three dimensions we now inhabit.

    That it is not exclusive of 'Physicality'.

    One might use the 'Spirit and in Truth' to say that the Physical can not be included.

    But, that would be to make the same error Christian Science does.

    Don't confuse the Carnal Natural Life (a Heart attitude diametrically opposed to a Godward Spirit Life) with the Physical Dimension (our bodies).

    And, do not think that to be 'Spiritual' automatically makes one 'saved' or 'Godward'.

    That, too, is a dangerous assumption that spiritists and new agers have been making for years.

    To me, 'Spirit and in Truth' means with a Pure Heart Wholly Devoted to God, through Jesus.

    Sorry, if I have rambled or not made sense.
     
  14. Elk

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    Hey all!
    There are various passages of Scripture that show us what Jesus was like once HE was resurrected. (John 2:19-21)

    He ate food. HE showed scars to Thomas. Yet, some people did not recognize HIM at first. So, obviously, something changed.
    He could appear and disappear at will.

    Flesh, yes, but a resurrected new type of flesh.

    But as far as these words quoted from above:

    "Now, Oneness Pentecostals claim that there is only one person in the Godhead and that being Jesus Christ. This is an error. They teach that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all the same person, only different in manifestation. The correct doctrine is that there is only one God who is three persons: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Each is not the same person as the other. Yet, there are not three gods, only one."

    You have to remember that if you look back at Christian history shortly after the time of the Asuza Street revivial, early 1900's, that an argument had occurred at one of the pentecostal conferences. According to a book I read, a man woke up one morning excited about a revelation that he felt he got from the Lord about baptism.
    He saw and compared Matt 28:19 with Acts 2:38.
    And he was trying to share with everyone that that Name to be baptised in was JESUS. That was the "Name" of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit of Matt 28:19.
    Well, immediately, it met great opposition.
    Hence, what developed was the Assembly of God churches (Trinitarian) and the PAW, which is the Pentecostal Assemblies of the World (this is the Oneness group).
    As I have studied much about this, I can see and I believe that the Lord showed me this, was that I was a victim of this argument. Because these two groups emphasized their view/point, and needless to say if one goes into some of these churches you will see that Trinity or Oneness is greatly emphasized, and in some greatly overdone.

    Some Assemblies of God churches really do teach that if they go to Heaven they will see three persons in Heaven.
    While Oneness would teach that you will find Jesus.

    I have discovered that one can really tell of which camp a certain pentecostal is, by listening to their prayer and to whom they are praying.

    As far as who is right, I would venture to guess that both are a little radical. But sadly, if they could ever sit down and reason it out, they would find that they are not too far apart really, just coming at it from a different perspective.

    For example, in the Oneness group, based on John 4, where Jesus is talking about the Father...HE says that God is Spirit (and HE is referring to the Father). So, the question might be asked to those that are radical Trinity, viewing the Godhead as co-equal, co-existent, etc...if the Father is Spirit, is the Holy Spirit "another" spirit? Or who owns the Throne in Heaven?
    Who commandments do we obey? Who raised Jesus from the dead? Who sends the Holy Spirit?
    Etc. etc.

    As for me, if someone were to ask me, what makes Jesus, the Son, different from the Father? It is His Flesh, and that He emptied Himself, died on the Cross, and He prayed to the Father, etc. It is His Flesh that sets Him apart from the Father.

    What makes the Holy Spirit different? That He could live in us without our being killed.

    I do like that expression from the Catholics, regarding the Trinity...an internal relationship.

    I kind of find it humorous actually, being how sad it is, that people fight against others, and do not realize what a wonderful thing they are fighting against. Imagine people getting mad because they believe that Jesus is God and God alone...based on so many passages of Isaiah and John. The great I AM.

    Do we need to embrace the Trinity concept? I have often wondered about that. Perhaps it is good when defending the Gospel. But is it a perfect description of the Godhead? No, even every denomination will declare that. God is too big. The concept of the Trinity does not include the Seven Spirits of God mentioned in Revelations, nor does it encompass the 44 or so manifestations of God in the Old Testament.

    So, I keep coming back to the same conclusion over and over again...that if the Trinity exalts Who Jesus is, was and will be, then I am for it.
    If it makes less of Jesus Who came in the Flesh, as though Jesus was just someone Who came in the "place" of the Father, then I am against it.

    Yes, people say that in the Trinity, that Jesus, the Son, is the Second Person that came down from Heaven. But you look at Revelations, and Jesus says that He is the First and the Last.

    What does that tell you?
     
  15. trying2understand

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    This thread is not about the Trinity.

    The purpose of this thread is to address the question of the nature of Jesus as it relates to Spirit and Flesh.

    john6:63 appears to now be saying that Jesus (post ascention) in only Flesh - not Flesh and Spirit.

    I hope that all members will help me to keep this thread on track.
     
  16. Elk

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    Another verse to consider regarding the form of Jesus now in Heaven...

    Matt 16:27-28
    27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
    KJV

    Here is the definition for "glory"...
    NT:1391
    oxa, doxees, hee
    I. opinion, judgment, view:
    II. opinion, estimate, whether good or bad, concerning someone
    III. splendor, brightness
    1. properly: Acts 22:11 2. magnificence, excellence, preeminence, dignity, grace: Matt 4:8 3. majesty
    a. that which belongs to God
    &lt;START GREEK&gt;a&lt;END GREEK&gt;. the kingly majesty which belongs to him as the supreme ruler Matt 6:13
    &lt;START GREEK&gt;b&lt;END GREEK&gt;. majesty in the sense of the absolute perfection of the deity: Rom 1:23 b. majesty which belongs to Christ
    &lt;START GREEK&gt;a&lt;END GREEK&gt;. the kingly majesty of the Messiah, to which belongs his kingly state, Mark 10:37
    &lt;START GREEK&gt;b&lt;END GREEK&gt;. the absolutely perfect inward or personal excellence of Christ: 2 Cor 3:18; 4:4
    &lt;START GREEK&gt;g&lt;END GREEK&gt;. the majesty (glory) of angels, as apparent in their exterior brightness, Luke 9:26 4. a most glorious condition, most exalted state
    a. of that condition with God the Father in heaven to which Christ was raised after he had achieved his work on earth: Luke 24:26; John 17:5 b. the glorious condition of blessedness into which it is appointed and promised that true Christians shall enter after their Saviour's return from heaven: Rom 8:18,21
    (from Thayer's Greek Lexicon, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 2000 by Biblesoft)
     
  17. john6:63

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    You’ve taken my comment on how we should worship God, in relation to using statues of dead saints as an aid in worshiping God, by me quoting Jesus in John 4:24 and turned it into a discussion about the Trinity. Thus taking the focus of the error Catholics adapted from the Babylonian era and have blown this all out of proportion.

    Let me again attempt, along with all the other posters here to explain this in a different way.

    Gen 1:2 says …Spirit of God.. which agrees with John 4:24. Gen 1:26 says Let us make man… This confirms that there was more than just God in the beginning. Was this Jesus with God? It seems to me that God was in communion with His Son prior to the creation.

    Was Jesus human form then? I haven’t thought about it to be honest. But I do know that according to John 1:14 …the Word became flesh and dwelt among us… If the Word became flesh, then I’d say Jesus was Spirit as well.

    Here is a summary of John 1:
    There is a Being known as the Word. This Being is God, because He is eternal In the beginning. This Being is God, because He is plainly called God, the Word was God. At the same time, this Being does not encompass all that God is. God the Father is a distinct Person from the Word (the Word was with God).

    So, the Father and the Son (the Son is known here as the Word) are equally God, yet distinct in their Person. The Father is not the Son, and the Son is not the Father. Yet they are equally God, with God the Holy Spirit making one God in three Persons.

    Therefore, according to John 1:14, Jesus the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. Meaning the disciples could physically touch Jesus. Once Jesus was crucified and His Father raised Him from the dead. You will notice in John 20:17 Jesus tells Mary Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father. From what I’ve read Jesus was telling Mary not to cling to Him, but Jesus’ resurrected body was definitely real and tangible. In John 20:19, Jesus suddenly appears in the midst of His disciples in a room with closed doors. John informs us that closed doors didn’t limit Christ; so apparently, resurrection bodies are not subject to the same limitations as our present bodies. Jesus’ resurrected body that the disciples could physically touch and that is different than that of ours ascends into Heaven in Acts 1.

    Is Jesus Christ still in this form sitting at Gods right hand? I’d say yes. Is Jesus back to His form that he was before He the Word BECAME flesh and dwelt among us? Well, I’ve always claimed not to be a Bible scholar, but I’d say No. I could be wrong, I’ll have to consult my Pastor about this. The reason I say no, is because Jesus will return just as He left physically, visibly and to the Mount of Olives.

    I’m sorry if I can’t explain this any better for you. Search the scriptures and find the answer, as I’ve tried and pointed you to scripture to back my opinions. Or else consult your priest.
     
  18. john6:63

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    In addition some feel that Jesus didn’t want anyone to touch Him until He had entered the heavenly holy of holies and sprinkled sprinkling blood on the Mercy Seat to complete the antitype of the Day of Atonement initiated by His sacrifice on the cross.

    I haven’t yet studied this enough to decide which to actually believe.
     
  19. trying2understand

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    Well, that God is Spirit was your basis for saying that we are not to use physical things to aid us in prayer, was it not?

    If you are unsure as to whether Jesus is Spirit or Flesh or both, how are you so certain of your conclusion regarding physical things as aids to prayer?
     
  20. john6:63

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    Come on now, T2U! Do I really have to critique my own posts, just for you to ‘understand’ them? I know your moniker is Trying2understand, but please, work with me here.

    First, you quoted me as saying:
    This quote of mine was in reference to the quote Jesus made to Mary in John 20:17. Touch me not. There are two views as to why Jesus said this to Mary. I was simply pointing out the two views and simply stating that I haven’t studied it enough to decide which I believe.

    Second, the purpose of this thread is a complete misunderstanding on YOUR part of John 4:24 that I quoted on a previous thread. You took God is Spirit to mean Jesus or something. How on earth you did that is beyond me! Unless you think Jesus and God are the same person. Do you?

    Third, I stand by my using John 4:24 as how Jesus wants us to worship His Father. The use of images and other material things as a focus or help to worship denies whom God is, which is Spirit and how we must worship Him, which is in spirit and truth. Catholics use dead saints, along with Mary to help or aid in worship. Tsk…Tsk…Tsk, it’s wrong and none is supported Biblical. Exodus 20:4-5 says it’s a NO, NO.

    If you ‘honor’ them in a sense of worshiping God, IT’S A SIN, plan and simple, no, ifs, ands or buts about it.

    I’m done, have a nice weekend and Thanksgiving. See ya’ll in a few weeks…
     

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