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Jesus Never Changes, But What About This?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by swaimj, Dec 7, 2009.

  1. swaimj

    swaimj <img src=/swaimj.gif>

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    Winman, this is the exact point I am making. The Jews were God's chosen people and to show their "set-apartness" to God, they had dietary laws (among other things). Today, it is not a nationality that is set apart unto God, but it is those who place faith in the finished work of Christ. To show that we are set apart to God, we do not have dietary laws, we live lives of holiness unto God.

    Here is my point. This change from dietary laws to show separation unto God to the deletion of this requirement is not a change in God, rather it is a change in what God requires of man. Many non-dispensationalists want to say that God never changes, salvation never changes, nothing ever changes; salvation history is one continuing story; the church has always been, etc. However, this change in dietary laws is one illustration of changes in what God requires from man in different times, in different....DISPENSATIONS.

    You may call it something else, but the concept that dispensationalists are describing comes out of the story of redemption and is a major feature of it. God has progressively revealed himself over the history of redemption and at different times he has required different things of His people. These changes in what he requires are dispensations.

    If you disagree, then you are either disagreeing and saying that the changes never took place (I don't know how you could even pretend that you think that is true) or you have to give the phenomena a different name. That is my question: What do you call it?
     
  2. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Well, I am in no way an expert on these things, I find the law to be complex and difficult to understand.

    The laws given to the Jews are not the same as the law given to Noah. Noah was not allowed to eat blood.

    Gen 9:3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.
    4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.


    When God gave the dietary laws, the Jews were not allowed to eat blood as well.

    Lev 19:26 Ye shall not eat any thing with the blood: neither shall ye use enchantment, nor observe times.

    And when Paul went down to Jerusalem because of those who tried to tell the early Christians they had to obey the dietary laws, blood was still forbidden.

    Acts 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

    So, it seems for Gentiles, we can eat most anything, except we should not eat something knowingly offered to idols, and abstain from eating blood. I believe when it says "things strangled" that this is probably also speaking of blood, as opposed to an animal whose throat is slit and the blood drained out.

    Makes me wonder if I should eat steak medium rare the way I like. :tongue3:
     
  3. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    I would agree with you for the most part. I do not believe salvation has changed whatsoever. I believe there has always been, and always will be one gospel, that a person is saved by faith in Jesus Christ. The same gospel applies to all, Gentile and Jew.

    Now that said, people did not always know the details of the coming saviour. We do not know exactly what Adam and Eve knew of the saviour to come.

    Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

    This is the first promise of Christ in the scriptures. It simply shows that the saviour would be the seed of a woman, but not the seed of a man. It also shows that while Jesus would defeat Satan by stepping on his head, he would be slain on the cross (thou shalt bruise his heel). So, this is all we have from scripture as to what Adam and Eve knew. So, I doubt they really understood that Jesus would go to the cross. But still, they believed and trusted in the saviour to come, so salvation has always been through faith in Jesus. And as time went by, more and more details about the coming saviour were revealed. For instance, Job knew about the resurrection from the dead.

    Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
    26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
    27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.


    Job seemed to understand that the saviour would be God himself, for he says he was alive at the moment, and that he would stand in the last days upon the earth. He also knew that Jesus would redeem him, or make payment for him. He also knew he himself would die and his physical body would decay, but that he would be raised from the dead with a new physical body. So, Job believed in Jesus to come, and he knew of the resurrection. He may not have known every detail, such as Jesus going to the cross which was revealed to prophets much later, but he trusted God's promises in what was revealed to him at the time.

    Now, once something is revealed, then you are accountable. The chief priests knew of the Christ to come, but they did not believe Jesus was the promised Christ.

    Luke 22:66 And as soon as it was day, the elders of the people and the chief priests and the scribes came together, and led him into their council, saying,
    67 Art thou the Christ? tell us. And he said unto them, If I tell you, ye will not believe:
    68 And if I also ask you, ye will not answer me, nor let me go.
    69 Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God.
    70 Then said they all, Art thou then the Son of God? And he said unto them, Ye say that I am.
    71 And they said, What need we any further witness? for we ourselves have heard of his own mouth.


    They knew of the coming Christ, but when Jesus was revealed to them, they refused to believe he specifically was the Christ. Notice Jesus did not say they couldn't believe, he said they wouldn't (will not) believe. Big difference. They were responsible for what was revealed. After Jesus came they had no more excuse not to believe. If they truly believed in the promised Christ to come, they should have recognized Jesus by his word, and by his works and miracles.

    John 15:22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.
     
    #23 Winman, Dec 10, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 10, 2009
  4. swaimj

    swaimj <img src=/swaimj.gif>

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    Salvation has not changed in that salvation is by faith and always has been. However, there is a progress in the information that one had to believe as we follow the scriptures. In Acts, Peter is very specific that "there is no other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved". However, the name "Jesus" was not revealed to anyone until the angel said to Mary and to Joseph "thou shalt call him name Jesus". Consider Abraham. He was saved by faith but his faith was not in the name or the person of Jesus. Abraham never heard of Jesus. That name was never revealed to him. Rather "Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness". So, I agree with you that "people did not always know the details of the coming saviour".

    This serves to support the point that I am making. Over time, God has progressively and increasingly revealed himself. The information that one had to believe developed over time and God requirements for holiness differed over time as well. When we think through these differences and we trace out the development, we can organize these progressions and we call them dispensations.

    That is what dispensationalism is. No more and no less. Some may reject the term, but the concept is so obvious that everyone who studies the Bible seriously becomes, by default, a dispensationalist.
     
  5. Bob Alkire

    Bob Alkire New Member

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    You are correct! Abraham was the first Jew so to say but Abram was a gentile. The law was given to Israel.

    Again you are correct

    I too, like them medium rare.
     
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