Jesus or God 2

Discussion in 'Bible Versions/Translations' started by Marcia, Mar 18, 2009.

  1. Marcia

    Marcia
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    I'm persistent and am starting this thread again and I am requesting there be no attacks on MVs or off topic discussion/debate or personal attacks. Please respect this request and do not make me report your post to a mod or ask the thread to be closed. Can we actually have a civil discussion of this? I hope so.

    I'm using Deacon's post from the closed Jesus or God thread. He finally answered my oft repeated request for an example of the Jesus or God issue in translations. (Thank you, Rob).
    So does anyone want to say why the AV has Christ and the NASB has God? I'll wait and bit and then weigh in. I know there is an answer - I can't recall it and will have to research it if no one else does - but I don't mind.

     
  2. Steven2006

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    Now about those earlier manuscripts, just kidding Marcia :laugh:

    I to would be interested in other examples of this.
     
  3. Steven2006

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    As far as the question. A quick look at the KJV at the next two verses and we see God used.

    Rom 14:11 For it is written, [As] I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

    Rom 14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.


    So I see it maybe as an attempt at consistency that the NASB uses God in all three.

    I want to add that even though I am a big fan of the NASB, I like the way the KJV translated the verse better. But I don't see it as a plot or anything when it comes to the NASB.
     
    #3 Steven2006, Mar 18, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 18, 2009
  4. EdSutton

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    FTW, I wiww apowogize for sometimes going off topic in fowwowing a wabbit twail. Howevew, I am usually simply hunting down some "wascawwy wabbit" that is alweady wunning awound on the woose.

    Seriously, the answer to your question here is actually very simple.
    The AV 1873 correctly renders "Χριστὸς" (christos) as "Christ" as this (apparently) follows the TR-1598 edition used as the Greek textual basis for translating the KJV NT in 1611; likewise the NASB95 also correctly renders "θεὸς" (theos) as "God" as this followsthe UBS-4 edition used as the Greek textual basis for translating the NASB95 NT.

    See how simple that was! :D

    Ed
     
  5. Tater77

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    14:10
    θεοῦ] א* A B C* D F G (0150 τῷ θεῷ) 630 1506 1739 1852 2200 l1178 itar itb itd ite itf itg ito itx itz vgww vgst copsa copbo armms slavms Origenlat(5/6) Pelagius Jerome1/3 Augustine1/6 Cyril Fulgentius John-Damascus Sedulius-Scotus WH NR CEI Riv TILC Nv NM
    Χριστοῦ] (see 2Corinthians 5:10) א2 C2(vid) L P Ψ 048 0209 6 33 81 88 104 181 256 263 326 330 365 424 436 451 459 614 629 1175 1241 1319 1573 1877 1881 1912 1962 1984 1985 2127 2492 2495 Byz Lect itdem itgue itr vgcl syrp syrh goth armms eth geo slavms Marcionaccording to Tertullian Polycarp Origenlat(1/6) Cyprian Ambrosiaster Amphilochiusvid Ambrose Didymusdub Chrysostom Severian Jerome2/3 Theodore Augustine5/6 Teodoret Gennadius Antiochus ς ND Dio


    Here is a list of mss that supports "God" in the reading. "God" is simply the older reading.
     
    #5 Tater77, Mar 18, 2009
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  6. Marcia

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    Ed and Tater77, thank you for the info.

    This shows that nobody was "replacing 'Jesus' with 'God'," as someone said.
     
  7. Deacon

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    The full story isn’t just that there are two distinct Greek readings but why there are different readings.

    One possible explanation concerns the way the older texts were written.
    The names of God, Jesus, the Son, the holy Spirit, and others were often abbreviated.

    The abbreviations were not always standardized and sometimes even vary within the same manuscript.

    These abbreviations were called the Nomina Sacra or Sacred names [LINK]

    From the link, you can see that even in clear modern type, the abbreviations are similar and easy to confuse.

    Check out how it looked by reading an actual papyrus (P46) [LINK]

    In most cases these small variants have very little effect, if any, on the meaning of the text.

    It seems we all were able to follow the admonition to behave and not hold our brothers (or sisters) in contempt for prefering one reading over another.

    Rob
     
  8. jonathan.borland

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    p46 is reported to be extant for Rom 11:35-15:9 (as well as for most of Romans), but apparently it is defective for this part of verse? And, as Deacon has already indicated, in Greek the difference between "of God" and "of Christ" is only the change of a single letter. By far the earliest witnesses to the text are Polycarp and Marcion (both 2nd century), and they read "of Christ." Apparently the only Fathers who have "of God" are either Alexandian or rely on the Latin, which has "of God."

    The question is why one would change "of Christ" to "of God" (or vice versa), if the change was not wholly an accidental one. The most obvious reason to me, is that some wanted to solve the apparent contradiction between verses 10 and 11, assuming "of Christ" to be original in verse 10. Otherwise, you have some orthodox corruptors jumping at the opportunity to create another equation of Christ (vs. 10) with God (v. 11), assuming "of God" were original in v. 10. Although the latter situation is possible, I think the former possibility is more probable, given that scribes usually wanted to remove apparent contradictions, which would seem to shine forth in an obvious nature when comparing verses 10 and 11 in a simpleminded way.

    Just copy the text and leave it otherwise alone, you simpleminded simpleton scribes!
     
  9. EdSutton

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    Not quite so fast, here, please!

    I'm not sure I necessarily buy that, about the reading of "God" ("theos") being older, here. (I am very leery of purchasing any "pig in a poke" in that I happen to be a farmer.) One may be able to make this argument as to the words found in an actual Greek text, however this is still 'laced' through and through with all sorts of presuppositions, both inherent and attached.

    Polycarp, Tertullian, Marcion, Cyprian, and Origen all almost certainly predate any of the known extant Greek texts (I believe either the list you have cited or the one I have access to has misidentified the % of support and earlier/later datings of the citation of Origen, here, for mine has this almost exactly reversed), and the Syriac and Gothic versions are also older, with the Armenian, Ethiopian, Coptic, and Georgian versions also for the most part, as old as any of the Greek texts. These would seem to give more credence to the "Christ" ("Xpistos") reading.

    One might also note that the "original hand" of both "א" and "C" have "TOUXPIΣTOU" which is 'corrected' to read "TOUΘEOU" which is an appreciable difference, contrary to the incorrect assertion made elsewhere on the BB, that this involves the change of only one letter. [I have underlined the letters which differ, here. (Sorry about that one, Deacon and jonathan.borland! Next time, read the assignment, first! ;))] Uh- why were these MSS edited/corrected, unless they were being proof-read against other known manuscript(s)?? One doesn't normally 'edit' something except to 'correct' something, I do not believe.

    The majority of the Lectionaries and also the Byzantine tradition also seem to support the reading 'of Christ', it would appear, as well. Likewise, a number of the Old Italian MSS seem to give credence to the reading of 'of God' in like manner. I suggest that the later dates of all these make them of dubious value in answering this question, however, as all these are mostly ex post facto documents.

    In addition, I'll add that the differing citations of Origen, Jerome, Augustine would seem to indicate that they were not certain of the correct reading, here. Granted, Origen and Augustine would both write about anything and everything, but that would seem to be irrelevant. Jerome, as the compiler/editor/translator of the Vulgate, was 'charged' with getting it right, by contrast.

    I am simply saying that this is nowhere near as clear cut as your post would make this appear.

    Ed
     
    #9 EdSutton, Mar 19, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 19, 2009
  10. franklinmonroe

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    For what its worth, Romans Chapter 14 (KJV) uses the word "God" 10 times (verses 3, 4, 6 twice, 11, 12, 17, 18, 20, & 22) and the word "Christ" just 4 times (verses 9, 10, 15, & 18).

    So, in the immediate context the Person of the Godhead being named seems to go back and forth: verse 9 has "Christ", verse 10 is the question, verses 11 & 12 both have "God", verse 15 has "Christ" again, verse 17 has "God" again, and verse 18 has both.
     
    #10 franklinmonroe, Mar 19, 2009
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  11. Tater77

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    I just re-read my copy paste list and found something odd. Wouldn't Tertullian and Polycarp be the earliest witnesses? Tertullian was in Carthage, Africa and Polycarp in Smyrna, Turkey. Neither reading seems to be located anywhere specific. This is odd. Both are spread out geographically.

    "One might also note that the "original hand" of both "א" and "C" have "TOUXPIΣTOU" which is 'corrected' to read "TOUΘEOU" which is an appreciable difference, contrary to the incorrect assertion made elsewhere on the BB, that this involves the change of only one letter"

    Could you direct me to your sources on this Ed?
     
  12. jonathan.borland

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    You do know, don't you, that the first hand of Sinaiticus has two letters for the reading, theta - upsilon, and that the second hand of the same manuscript has changed a single letter, the theta to a chi? I hope you also realize that Alexandrinus and Vaticanus also both only have two letters for the reading, i.e., theta - upsilon. This is a nomen sacrum for "of God."

    In your post you have supplied letters that no present manuscripts that I know of have ever placed between the letters making up the nomen sacrum "of God" (theta - upsilon) or that of "of Christ" (chi - upsilon) in Rom 14:10.
     
    #12 jonathan.borland, Mar 19, 2009
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  13. EdSutton

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    No, I did not know this, and have not seen much of Sinaiticus on-line, even though I have looked for this passage in Romans. I simply took my information from my two printed Greek texts, as to the readings, and merely used the Uncial letters, sans spacing, that would have been consistent with the style of what of that manuscript that I have seen (one photo). I have not seen any of "A" photocopied anywhere, on-line, but maybe you have links that I do not that would show me either "א" or "A" or both. Perhaps you could even list them, adn I can get to view them, as well.

    I am a farmer, after all, not a scholar or teacher, hence, not with very good access to any larger theological libraries, although I could get to Asbury, or Lexington, in a pinch.

    Ed
     
  14. Tater77

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  15. jonathan.borland

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    For Aleph, see the original reading with the correction at the end of the first paragraph (leftmost column) here.

    For Alexandrinus, see the reading for "of God" (theta - upsilon with a supralinear stroke) on the left column, line 8, about in the middle, here.

    For Vaticanus, see the reading for "of God" (theta - upsilon with a supralinear stroke) on the middle column, fifth line from the bottom, near the end of the line, here.
     
    #15 jonathan.borland, Mar 19, 2009
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  16. Askjo

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    You are right. Polycarp was a disciple of the Apostle John and witnessed "Christ" on Romans 14:10.
     
  17. Deacon

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    I’m a bit surprised, the phrase “judgment seat” is only used seven times in the whole NT.
    (Matthew 27:19; John 19:13; Acts 18:12, 16, 17; Romans 14:10 and 2 Corinthians 5:10)

    ***********************************************

    POLYCARP - Letter to the Phiippians

    6. The presbyters, for their part, must be compassionate, merciful to all, turning back those who have gone astray, visiting all the sick, not neglecting a widow, orphan, or poor person, but “always aiming at what is honorable in the sight of God and of men,” avoiding all anger, partiality, unjust judgment, staying far away from all love of money, not quick to believe things spoken against anyone, nor harsh in judgment, knowing that we are all in debt with respect to sin. (2) Therefore if we ask the Lord to forgive us, then we ourselves ought to forgive, for we are in full view of the eyes of the Lord and God, and we must “all stand before the judgment seat of Christ,” and “each one must give an account of himself.” (3) So, then, let us serve him with fear and all reverence, just as he himself has commanded, as did the apostles, who preached the gospel to us, and the prophets, who announced in advance the coming of our Lord. Let us be eager with regard to what is good, and avoid those who tempt others to sin and false brothers and those who bear the name of the Lord hypocritically, who lead foolish men astray.

    6.1 Καὶ οἱ πρεσβύτεροι δὲ εὔσπλαγχνοι, εἰς πάντας ἐλεήμονες, ἐπιστρέφοντες τὰ ἀποπεπλανημένα, ἐπισκεπτόμενοι πάντας ἀσθενεῖς, μὴ ἀμελοῦντες χήρας ἢ ὀρφανοῦ ἢ πένητος, ἀλλὰ προνοοῦντες ἀεὶ τοῦ καλοῦ ἐνώπιον θεοῦ καὶ ἀνθρώπων, ἀπεχόμενοι πάσης ὀργῆς, προσωποληψίας, κρίσεως ἀδίκου, μακρὰν ὄντες πάσης φιλαργυρίας, μὴ ταχέως πιστεύοντες κατά τινος, μὴ ἀπότομοι ἐν κρίσει, εἰδότες ὅτι πάντες ὀφειλέται ἐσμὲν ἁμαρτίας. (2) εἰ οὖν δεόμεθα τοῦ κυρίου ἵνα ἡμῖν ἀφῇ, ὀφείλομεν καὶ ἡμεῖς ἀφιέναι• ἀπέναντι γὰρ τῶν τοῦ κυρίου καὶ θεοῦ ἐσμὲν ὀφθαλμῶν, καὶ πάντας δεῖ παραστῆναι τῷ βήματι τοῦ Χριστοῦ, καὶ ἕκαστον ὑπὲρ ἑαυτοῦ λόγον δοῦναι. (3) οὕτως οὖν δουλεύσωμεν αὐτῷ μετὰ φόβου καὶ πάσης εὐλαβείας, καθὼς αὐτὸς ἐνετείλατο καὶ οἱ εὐαγγελισάμενοι ἡμᾶς ἀπόστολοι καὶ οἱ προφῆται οἱ προκηρύξαντες τὴν ἔλευσιν τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν, ζηλωταὶ περὶ τὸ καλόν, ἀπεχόμενοι τῶν σκανδάλων καὶ τῶν ψευδαδέλφων καὶ τῶν ἐν ὑποκρίσει φερόντων τὸ ὄνομα τοῦ κυρίου, οἵτινες ἀποπλανῶσι κενοὺς ἀνθρώπους.

    Michael William Holmes, The Apostolic Fathers : Greek Texts and English Translations, Updated ed. (Grand Rapids, Mich.: Baker Books, 1999), 213.

    Σὺ δὲ τί κρίνεις τὸν ἀδελφόν σου; ἢ καὶ σὺ τί ἐξουθενεῖς τὸν ἀδελφόν σου; πάντες γὰρ παραστησόμεθα τῷ βήματι τοῦ θεοῦ,

    ἄρα [οὖν] ἕκαστος ἡμῶν περὶ ἑαυτοῦ λόγον δώσει [τῷ θεῷ].
    Romans 14:10, 12 NA26

    τοὺς γὰρ πάντας ἡμᾶς φανερωθῆναι δεῖ ἔμπροσθεν τοῦ βήματος τοῦ Χριστοῦ, ἵνα κομίσηται ἕκαστος τὰ διὰ τοῦ σώματος πρὸς ἃ ἔπραξεν, εἴτε ἀγαθὸν εἴτε φαῦλον.2
    Corinthians 5:10 NA26

    *******************************************

    The Romans and 2 Corinthians passages are the only ones attributing the seat to either God or Christ.

    Rob
     
  18. Deacon

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    This is a bit like comparing apples and oranges.

    While Polycarp, Tertullian et al predate the earliest Greek texts, copies of their writings are all dated much later.
    These copies of their works were also subject to the transcriptional changes over time (and perhaps even more prone to changes than our scriptures).
    The tendency would be to conform the Church Fathers writings to known Scripture.
    ...though I don't know if that is the case here.

    Rob
     
  19. Tater77

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    Deacon, which is Polycarp quoting , Romans 14:10 or 2 Corinthians 5:10?

    2 Corinthians 5:10 (New American Standard Bible)

    For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.
     
  20. Tater77

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    I re-read Romans 14:10 in context and I found something odd.

    Romans 14:10-12 (New American Standard Bible)

    10But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you (A)regard your brother with contempt? For (B)we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.

    11For it is written,
    "(C)AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, (D)EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME,
    AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD."

    12So then (E)each one of us will give an account of himself to God.


    Now for the KJV

    Romans 14:10-12 (King James Version)

    10But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

    11For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

    12So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.


    Verses 10 and 12 agree with God as the reading. But would they contradict with Christ is verse 10?

    Or were Polycarp and Tertullian quoting other similar verses that have Christ in the original?

    Sorry for adding more questions :laugh:
     

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