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Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by adisciplinedlearner, Jun 10, 2010.
Jesus obviously taught salvation by faith, but did He teach salvation by faith ALONE?
The point of John 3 was that salvation (regeneration) was by the Holy Spirit at God's option.
Would you agree with this satement...
“Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ"
Why or why not?
John says nothing about "God's option". He does say by "God's will".
Yes, this is what the Bible teaches. Salvation is by Grace alone, in Christ alone, through faith alone.
though nowhere in the bible will you find that phrase stated in that manner.
I believe it depends on what kind of faith you are talking about. If you mean a faith that simply says, "I believe," but that belief does not bringh forth a change in the person it is a false faith. Also, if no good works flow from the faith it is false. Good works do not save. However, show me your works and I will show you your faith.
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? James 2:20
Could you expound on your point here? Are you suggesting that because this phrase doesn't exist in that exact manner that the Bible teaches something else? The Bible doesn't have the word Trinity in it either, but that certainly doesn't mean that the Bible denies the deity of Christ or of the Holy Spirit.
Funny how people use that same argument for all sorts of beliefs. I just made a point of it to mention you won't find that phrase in the bible therefore you have to come to that understanding by reasoning, compling text, etc...
Also I note the phrase
is a misnomer. There are 3 alones. Kind of like saying lone rangers. In fact if Salvation is by Grace, in Christ, through faith. Then the term alone seems silly. If in fact Salvation is by Grace alone. Then stop in Christ alone and through faith alone. They are not necissary additives. In fact, in Christ alone takes away from the statement Grace alone. It makes the statement a lie. Just because you use a preposition doesn't redefine the term "Alone". If its by Grace alone then stop faith not required. I find it funny.
Well we need to be careful here. Paul clearly teaches that ultimate salvation is based on how we live:
God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,
So we need to embrace both salvation by faith and salvation by good works. How can we do this? By adopting basically this position: the person who places faith in Jesus Christ in the present is given the Holy Spirit, who then transforms that person into the kind of person who will most assuredly pass the "good works" judgement that is coming for all, with eternal life in the balance.
Actually, it's "by grace through faith", Eph. 2:8. We are saved by the grace of God through faith that God gives us to trust Him and His word, and "Not by works, lest any man should boast." Eph. 2:9
However, I suggest that we need to understand that the Eph 2:8-9 teaching does not refute final salvation according to good works, something that Paul affirms in Romans 2, Romans 8, 2 Corinthians 5, and elswehere. Here is the relevant argument re Ephesians 2:
The material that follows 2:8-10 makes no sense if "good works" are in view in 2:8-10. More specifically, if the justification value of "good works" is being denied, why does Paul use a "therefore" transitional in verse 11 to conclude that the Gentile now has access to the covenant promises (including, of course, final justification) specifically because a dividing line between Jew and Gentile has been dissolved? After all, the dividing line is, of course, not the “good works” line, it is the “works of the Law of Moses” line.
There is indeed a sense in which the standard reformed reading of this could be salvaged (although this ultimately does not work as we will shortly see). If Paul says “no one is justified by good works, therefore remember that the Jew-Gentile barrier has been destroyed”, he could mean that there is some difference between the Jew and the Gentile in respect to doing good works, but this difference is irrelevant since good works do not justify.
In other words, he could be saying: "Listen you Gentiles, you need not do the good works that the Jews are doing to be saved since good works do not save anyway, therefore...you are not foreigners to the covenants of the promise, etc., etc.)”
But, of course, Paul does not believe this - he believes that Jew and Gentile alike are in sin. So it makes no sense for Paul, if he has really asserted that "good works" do not save, to then say "thereforeyou Gentiles now have hope since the barrier between Jew and Gentile has been destroyed, etc. etc." Why does this not make sense? Obviously, because Jew and Gentile are on equal footing in respect to "good works" – neither does enough good works, at least without the Spirit, to save.
Paul is therefore obviously talking about the works of the Law of Moses in 2:8-9. Then the "therefore" stuff makes sense since the Law of Moses is indeed the thing that divides Jew from Gentile and is the basis for the Gentile believing that he is on the outside in respect to the covenant promises.
Thanks for the clarification.
No where in the BIble will you find the word TRinity either. C'mon...
What is ironic to us is that it is the cultists that use the argument you presented. Muslims, in fact, have used the argument that no where in the Bible does Jesus say, "I am God, worship me." Just as the argument of the JW is that nowhere in the Bible is the word Trinity found.
The bottom line it your reply ran the gament of that kind of argumentation and both mine and the other brother's reply is proper.
Your final argument here is the one that is silly. To make the statement that we are saved by Grace alone, in Christ alone and by/through faith alone, is a statement that adds clarification. Try not to take the clarification to the absurdity you have.
Lastly, re-read my original reply to this thread. I said that "the BIble teaches..." I did not say "the Bible uses this phrase..."
Just as the Bible teaches the doctrine of the Trinity, so it too teaches that God's salvation of men is by grace alone, in Christ alone, and through faith alone.
The language use is silly. You are saved by Grace, in Christ, through Faith. To add alone to each statment is silly and makes no sense. You can say that you are saved by Grace, in Christ, through Faith alone. That makes sense. But to add alone to each word is silly. Its like saying the lone rangers. If its by Grace alone then its grace alone absent the prepositions in and through. Otherwise its not alone but subject to further scrutiny. And as far as islam it has nothing to do with our discussion.
I didn't write the phrase, but around here, I think the idea is that you have to take this sort of clarification to that level or else you get misunderstood. You know, sort of like how I wasn't sure what you were saying earlier. :smilewinkgrin:
At least, that's what I think is going on.
Actually the language is clear.
We are saved by/through faith alone. The word alone modifies faith, the subject. And it is meant to mean that is is through faith, and not works, but faith apart from works, that we are saved.
We are saved by grace alone. Same modifier, and it is meant to mean that it we are saved by the free grace of God, and not our own merits either by works or by foreseen faith that would be in us, or any other reason except God's unmerited favor and purpose.
We are saved in Christ alone. Same modifier, and is meant that by Christ Jesus, an no other thing, are the absolute ground upon which God the Father gives salvation to His elect. He does not give salvation apart from Christ alone, nor is any creature of His love under necessity to seek salvation elsewhere but by Christ. This is especially true in light of the false and pernicious teaching of the papacy that tells the world that outside its church there is no salvation. Rather, outside of Christ alone there is no salvation.
I wanted to add, that this phrase I used, is in no wise different or intended to be (but perhaps not articulated as well) as the five solas of the reformation.
Also, I just realized that my link to the cambridge declaration is broken. Here http://www.reformed.org/documents/i...p://www.reformed.org/documents/cambridge.html
Eternal life is a gift and not a wage.
Jon, you're right on the mark. Here is the entire quote -- Ephesians 2: 8-10.
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."
Clearly, we are saved by grace through faith - and this faith is not from ourselves -- instead our faith is a gift from God.