Jesus & Salvation By Faith ALONE

My Redeemer, Jesus, said I am justified by His righteousness.

 

Excuse me?

He has said that I "lie", and of course he simply has no evidence.

He is being rude and uncharitable.

 

This tactic - suggesting that those who disagree with you are calling Jesus (or God) a liar is tired, sad, overused, and deeply cynical.

In effect, it amounts to an attempt to inflame the issue, by portraying the person who disagrees with you in the awful position of calling our Lord a "liar".

This tactic should be avoided by all those who want to debate and discuss the issue in a fair and even-handed manner.

I suggest that I am hardly in need of Biblical instruction from you. If I followed your model of exegesis, I would, without justification, presume that when Paul (or Jesus) says something, they are speaking about what is only a hypothetical possibility as you do with Romans 2:6-7. That is, indeed, a most interesting way to look at the text - simply decide that what it says is not really true after all. Is this the kind of exegesis that I should be learning from you?

I will grant that Jesus indeed draws a connection between the 10 commandments and the rest of the law. But this oversight on my part is not relevant to the issue here - that the Scriptures teach that ultimate salvation is based on good works.

 

My apologies, after defending his comment he has made a few more, so I rescind my defense.

 

No. I am entirely embracing the notion that we are fundamentally changed at the point of belief.

I have never posted anything that would suggest that I am challenged by the different tenses by which salvation is referred to.

When one places faith in Christ, we become a new creation and are given the Spirit.

I do not understand what you think is problematic about the position that I am articulating here.

 

Acts 10:10 And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,
11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:
12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
16 This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.

28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

Do I have to explain the connection between Acts 10:1-16 with Acts 10:28 or can you manage? Just in case you cannot manage it, the unclean animals in the vision represent gentile people whose habits, practices and religion was morally unclean in God's sight. Now, can you get the connection between how God applied these foods to Leviticus 10-11????

The Jewish understanding and application of the Sabbath was done away with:

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: - Col. 2:16

.....and the ceremonial sabbatical cycle included foremost the seventh day of the week sabbath (Leviticus 23:1-4). Notice how the seventh day sabbath keeping is placed in between two scriptures that speak of "holy convocations" and "my feasts" (vv. 2,4) with the seventh day of the week sabbath right smack in between proving it is inclusive in the "handwriting" of ordinances (Moses wrote the only copy of the ten commandments ever given to Israel).

Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.
3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.
4 ¶ These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.

 

Obviously I am misunderstanding something. How about I make a few statements and you either agree or disagree. There are so many positions on the thread that it is somewhat confusing, at least to me.

Salvation comes by grace through faith.
Good works are the fruit of the Spirit Filled Christain.
A Christain must obey the Law.

I think we are in agreement on the first two. I must be misunderstanding you Chowmah or both on the third.

Where you and Chowmah are losing me is where you think works come in. I understand you in one place to say that salvation is not in faith alone, but when I ask if it is by works you say no.

 

Isaiah 66:17
They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the Lord.

So do you think this Day of the Lord scripture is saying that some people will be eating gentiles when the Lord returns to get rid of the bad guys?

 

You are not saved by works. You are saved by grace. Its a gift

But.....look at all these new covenant scriptures

DO YOU WANT ETERNAL LIFE
MATT.19 [16] And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? [17] And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.[18] He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

DO YOU KNOW GOD
1 JOHN 2 [1] My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: [2] And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. [3] And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. [4] He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

DO YOU LOVE GOD
1 JOHN 5 [1] Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. [2] By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. [3] For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

DO YOU WANT GODS HOLY SPIRIT
JOHN 14 [15] If ye love me, keep my commandments.[16] And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;[17] Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

DO YOU WANT A RIGHT TO THE TREE OF LIFE
REV. 22 [14] Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

HAS HEAVEN AND EARTH PASSED – YIKES! WHAT AM I STANDING ON?
MATT.5 [17] Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.[18] For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

HAVE YOU BEEN TAUGHT DUE TO GRACE WE NEED NOT KEEP GODS COMMANDMENTS
ROMANS 6 [15] What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid
1 JOHN 3 [4] Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

HAVE YOU BEEN TAUGHT DUE TO FAITH WE NEED NOT KEEP GODS COMMANDMENTS
ROMANS 3 [31] Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

HAVE YOU BEEN TAUGHT “JUST BELIEVE” AND YOU WILL BE SAVED
JAMES 2 [19] Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

ARE YOU ONE OF GODS SAINTS
REV. 14 [12] Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

WE KNOW WHO WINS THIS WAR – WHOSE SIDE YOU ON
REV. 12 [17] And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Yes GospelGeek we are saved only by the grace of God. Thats because we cannot keep His commandments perfectly. We couldnt be saved by keeping them. We all have fallen short. We are as filthy rags. That where the free gift comes in. Its one we do not deserve. Thank God for grace, the free gift.

 

Then what is your argument against grace through faith alone? It sound to me like you believe that you are saved by grace through faith and called to good works. These works are evidence of the regenerated heart which brings forth fruit. You have been debating Law with the Doc. 10 commandments, OT law, gentile laws written on the heart, etc. Are you saying that you must keep these laws? No one has done that. But by grace are ye saved. yes, we desire to be obedient to Christ. We desire to do good worsk. The Holy Spirit enables us to do good works, but the flesh wars against it. Sometimes we loose to the flesh and sin. If we are saved by grace and then under the law our sin condems us and we are no longer righteous. But if my righteousness is in Christ, I know that when i stand before the judgement seat of God, no matter how much I have tried, my righteousness will not pass, I would be condemed, but when the blood of Christ ia apresent and Jesus says I am one of his, HIS righteousness will wash me clean.

 

5:30 gotta run. Thanks for the Christlike debate. I'll try to catch you later tonight if I can.

Love and God Bless,
Keith

 

1 Cor. 3:13-15
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. [14] If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. [15] If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

No it dont seem so

 

Quite understandable - this is not an easy topic, in my opinion.

Yes, but in the following sense: Even though the ultimate judgement is based on good works, the believer is guaranteed to pass (provided he does not entirely disown Christ). Why is he guaranteed to pass? Because the Spirit is given by grace and grace alone based on faith. And the Spirit will produce the works that ultimately save.

Again, those who deny ultimate salvation by good works really have an issue with Paul, not me. It was Paul, not me, who penned these words:

God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Some here argue that Paul is not making a factaul statement about what will indeed happen in the future. That is quite a remarkable claim - the words seem clear: eternal life is granted according to what we have done.

Now it is of course possible that Paul could indeed be saying "This is how you would be saved if it were possible to be saved by good works, but no one can be saved by good works".

Well, where is the case? Where is the evidence that it is impossible to be saved by good works. Romans 8 talks about believers walking in the Spirit and being conformed to the image of the Son.

Does that sound like a scenario which rules out salvation by good work? It doesn't to me.

Yes, but they are also the basis of ultimate salvation.

The Christian must not obey the Law of Moses - the Jewish Law. Paul is quite clear in Ephesians and Galatians that the Law of Moses, which was only ever for Jews, has been retired as of the cross.

But we must indeed obey this "second" law that Paul talks about in places likes Romans 3:31 and at the end of Romans 9. There is no time to explain in detail what I mean, but, if we are to take Paul seriously (e.g. in Romans 3:31), we must accept that there is a "law" that indeed should be followed. In short, I will call this the "heart" of the Law of Moses - basically that we love God and neighbour.

 

If works were the basis of ultimate salvation, even spirit-filled salvation, as you put it, then we would all be condemned.

Christ put it quite plainly in many different places:

First in Romans 8:1
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus."--none, nada, zero. no works--zilch. No condemnation regardless if there are works or not

Romans 5:1
"Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God"--no works, none! We are not justified by works and never will be. This is exact opposite of what you said. We cannot be justified by works. Works are not the ultimate basis of salvation; faith is, and faith alone.

What does Christ think of works:
Matthew 7:21-23 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Depart from me ye that work iniquity--I never knew you.
But wait! What were their works?

Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
--What could Christ possibly have against that, that He should cast those that do these works into Hell?
It is evident that works do not save.
He says "I never knew you." Only faith in a saving relationship with Christ saves. In light of this the works become irrelevant.

 

MATT.7 [22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?[23] And then will I profess unto them, I NEVER KNEW YOU: DEPART FROM ME, YE THAT WORK INIQUITY.

PSALMS 119 [113] I hate vain thoughts: but thy law do I love.[114] Thou art my hiding place and my shield: I hope in thy word.[115] DEPART FROM ME, YE EVILDOERS: FOR I WILL KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF MY GOD.[116] Uphold me according unto thy word, that I may live: and let me not be ashamed of my hope.

Seems there will be many people who will be saying “I believe” when Jesus returns. Who had talked of Jesus and spoke in his name. Some that even have cast out devils in the name of Jesus. But “in that day” Jesus will say to “the many”, depart from me...I never knew you.

TITUS 1 [13] This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; [14] Not giving heed to Jewish fables, AND COMMANDMENTS OF MEN, that turn from the truth. [15] Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. [16] THEY PROFESS THAT THEY KNOW GOD; BUT IN WORKS THEY DENY HIM, being abominable, AND DISOBEDIENT, and unto every good work reprobate.

In Titus you will find people that profess they know God (they say they believe) but in works they deny Him. They do not know God. Works??? Bad word for some people.

PSALM 78 [6] That the generation to come might know them, even the children which should be born; who should arise and declare them to their children: [7] That they might set their hope in God, AND NOT FORGET THE WORKS OF GOD, BUT KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS: [8] And might not be as their fathers, a stubborn and rebellious generation; a generation that set not their heart aright, and whose spirit was not stedfast with God. [9] The children of Ephraim, being armed, and carrying bows, turned back in THE DAY OF BATTLE. [10] They kept not the covenant of God, and refused to walk in his law;

There be some who will claim Psalm 78 is an old testament scripture and can be ingnored. The day of battle. What will be happening “in that day”?

ZECH. 14:3-4 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought IN THE DAY OF BATTLE. [4] And HIS FEET SHALL STAND IN THAT DAY UPON THE MOUNT OF OLIVES, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

We all should know when His feet shall stand on the mount of olives. Getting back to Matt.7 where Jesus says to a people “I never knew you”. Are there a people that the new testament Word claims they do know the Lord?

1JOHN2 [3] AND HEREBY WE DO KNOW THAT WE KNOW HIM, IF WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS.[4] He that saith, i know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.[5] But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

Yup. “Many” people claim there is no where in the new testament that commands us to keep Gods sabbath day. That’s not true. Read the above scripture, then go read the fourth commandment.

 

Andre, you really have this one messed up.

We have "an issue with Paul" you say?

Paul has literally painstakenly delivered the Word of God to us and declared over and over again that the works you do do not save you.

You are ignoring statement after statement given by Paul where he said "by grace" and "not of works".

Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Rom 3:20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Your exegesis of this issue has a huge contradiction of texts.

Is "loving your neighbour" a "good deed"? Yes. And is it from the "law"? Yes.

Look at the verse you have presented a bit closer, especially in light of Romans 3.

What is the "good deed" Paul states that leads to eternal life?

........"patient continuance in well doing seek"........

Paul is expressing an eternal truth. Obedience to God does well in every dispensation. When Cain brought his fruit as an offering and God rejected it, God said, "If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted?" (Gen 4:7) Obedience to God in bringing the proper sacrifice would have been doing well. Today, in the age of grace, we do well by placing our faith in Jesus Christ as Saviour. Thus faith in Christ is patient continuance in well doing in this age. This is what will bring glory and honor and immortality, eternal life.

This is an incredible misrepresentation of the word of God. You said,

It is easy. God had to make it easy so the unlearned in this world did not have to rely upon the wisdom of men. God, through Paul, went above and beyond to make it simply clear that YOUR WORKS CANNOT SAVE YOU!!!

Let me say this to all on this board. If anyone does not grasp the gospel of grace through faith ALONE your ability to properly exegesis any scriptures on works is nonexistent. You are building upon Christ with wood, hay and stubble.

 

True.

In Ezek 18 we find the example of a righteous person who turns from his righteous ways - to rebellion -- to law breaking. The text says that "all of his righteous life will not be remembered" Ezek 18:24 "I never knew you".

Lost - saved - lost.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Doesn't matter if God commanded it or not. He also commanded that you love Him with all your heart, soul and mind, but you don't keep that commandment.

Rom 3:20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Pray you are not one of those "Many" who will be claiming they kept the law.

 

Yeah Bob

ZEPH. 1 [3] I will consume man and beast; I will consume the fowls of the heaven, and the fishes of the sea, and the stumblingblocks with the wicked; and I will cut off man from off the land, saith the Lord. [4] I will also stretch out mine hand upon Judah, and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and I will cut off the remnant of Baal from this place, and the name of the Chemarims with the priests; [5] And them that worship the host of heaven upon the housetops; and them that worship and that swear by the Lord, and that swear by Malcham; [6] And THEM THAT ARE TURNED BACK FROM THE LORD; and those that have not sought the Lord, nor enquired for him. [7] Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord God: for the day of the Lord is at hand: for the Lord hath prepared a sacrifice, he hath bid his guests

There will be people who turn away from the Lord

 

There are "Many" righteous people who do not know Jesus Christ. Read Matt 7.