Jesus Suffered In Hell For Our Sins? Is That Biblical?

You are perfectly entitled to be wrong. You are on all counts.

 

Marcia

The Apostle Paul tells us:

2Corinthians 5:8. We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

When we die our spirit/soul goes immediately into the presence of God. This same truth is taught in Ecclesiastes:

Ecclesiastes 12:7. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Dispensationalists like to say that some ignore the teaching of the Old Testament but when you quote it they ignore its teaching.

 

Well, I'm dispensationalist-leaning and I agree with you.

 

You are correct here Marcia. The body of Jesus Christ was buried. His spirit/soul went into immediately into the presence of God, along with the believing thief.

 

I assume that Jesus went to the Father to pour His blood on the real mercy seat. Does anyone agree with this?

 

Hi, Amy,

I've never been asked this so I'm thinking.

How could he do this if his body is in the grave? And if he did it when he ascended bodily, how would he do it?

I think perhaps the idea of his blood saving us is when he shed it on the cross, and the idea of pouring it on the mercy seat is figurative.

Do you have a verse that makes you think he did this?

 

Read the post by Brother James on the thread Dispensationalism/Covenant Theology.

 

Amy G and Marcia

I think it is figurative but this is discussed in Hebrews 9:11-18.

11. But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12. Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13. For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14. How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15. And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16. For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
18. Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.

 

OldRegular gave the verse that I was thinking about. But I was also taking into account the OT law of sprinkling the blood of animals sacrificed to the Lord, on the mercy seat in the tabernacle. Since all things OT are shadows of the real things to come and since the tabernacle was the earthly example of God's tabernacle in heaven (that's why God commanded the tabernacle to be built to His exact specifications, because everything represented the "true" tabernacle of God), I believe that Christ sprinkled His blood on the mercy seat of God in heaven. But it may be figurative as you guys said. I don't know. Christ's blood was real and the atonement was real, so, oh I don't know. :laugh:

 

The rendering here is his very being (soul/nephesh) and thus it's placement in hell/sheol. The fact he adds to this the physical reference of his body decaying illistrate my point exactly that sheol here is seen through both apects. So I agree with you that it supports the resurrection and it does so in both aspects.

No man has called himself from the grave, thus neither has any man brought himself back from spiritual realm, just as David was declaring and Peter proclaimed.
The definition you give do not fit. Let us look at something else as well. Here is an article by Bob L. Ross - The Reality of Hell. He goes into much detail about the meaning and defintion about sheol and hades:

From I can see Sheol and Hades are not synonamous with the grave (though it does incorporate this at times as a full picture) but more so with the place where all the dead went. And it appears that men such as Strongs, A.T.Robertson, Fauseet, and even Young agree with it's primary meaning as the author shows. I actaully have all of these (except for Young's) and this is what I see them stating as well.

However, A.T. Robertson has a unique view of Hades/Sheol in that both Heaven and Hell are there. IOW - Sheol/Hades are terms for the spiritual world in which both Heaven and Hell are apart. Robertson even quotes Page in stating "Death and Hades are strictly parallel terms, he who is dead is in Hades". They are terms used interchangably. However this view does cause one small problem in understanding of his position. Scritpure states that Jesus 'decended' to hades (place of the dead) and if it were heaven then this places heaven in a place where He does not have to 'ascend' to.

Yes but there is both a Greek and Hebrew word that simply means 'life'.
Yet the life you reference is actaully concerning what apsect of life since it can mean the indivuals life encompassing both the spiritual and physical, the physicaly body alone, and the spirit. Oh - it can also refer to one mental activies.

I guess my biggest problem is that there isn't enough evidence in to support Sheol as being 'just' the grave as shown previously. It can be used to properly describe one in the grave but that rendering encompasses the fact they are in the underworld as well. As stated previously - "he who is dead is in hades".

I have already stated this in my previous post showing that it is refering to his physical body in this portion of the sentence since "Sheol" can properly rendered as both the underworld AND the grave. It isn't a parallelism because it is a single sentence. You will find the parallelism in verse 11.

Fair enough. I have simply given various things that I have looked into, though not all. The word 'sheol' itself is enough to make one do a bit more study on what they understand (no matter what you view )

 

I think it is figurative also. The passage draws a parallel.

The blood of bulls and goats was the blood of the sacrifices that were offered in the OT economy. That blood looked forward and pictured the blood of Christ. However, they were still sacrifices performed here on earth.

"How much more shall the blood of Christ..." The blood of Christ was offered on the cross, not anywhere else. It was shed there--at Calvary, Golgotha, on the cross, for our sins, and then he cried: "It is finished!" His blood was shed. He didn't pick it up afterward and take it anywhere. It was shed there, literally, at Calvary.
It is a parallel, a comparison to the OT sacrifices. Just as the OT priests sacrificed bulls and goats (on earth), so Christ sacrificed sacrificed himself (on earth), and then committed himself (his spirit) to the Father.

 

I am just a little curious where Bibletalk went to school?

 

Allan, a parallelism does not have to be more than one sentence. It is just that it has to be at least 2 lines, not 2 sentences.

Source: http://www.cresourcei.org/parallel.html


Examples from the Jewish Encyclopedia:

Source: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=67&letter=P

Therefore, it is correct to say that Ps 16.10 is a parallelism.

As to the Sheol issue, I agree it was seen as an abode of the dead, but not always. Sometimes it just meant the grave.

 

Your right.
I remembered the 'lines of text' part from school when I posted and for some reason correlated it as sentences. So yes, it is a parellelism I do agree with you.

However - (imagine that ) that doesn't mean what I said isn't true. The parellel isn't the just one facet and that being only grave (as in buried). Remember that sheol is the place of the dead and when the term grave is used it encompasses the neitherworld (or better does not exclude but includes it). Thus it is synonymous with both the abode of the dead spiritually and physicall.

As I said the problem is in trying to divorce spiritual aspect of sheol from the phycal when they are connected and interrelated to one another. Again "he who is dead is in hades". This is the concept of Sheol.

This is from the site you referenced in your previous posting - "Jewish Encyclopedia" on the word Sheol:

Yes, I agree whole heartedly but it did not mean 'just' the grave because the Hebrew language has/had words that meant just that - which were words like "qĕbuwrah"; or "qeber" for example.

These meant simply and 'just' the grave, tomb, or burial/buring place.

So if these words existed then why use the term 'sheol'?

 

Thanks for all the info on Sheol.

I agree with the meanings but I think this requires more study.

It raises questions like:
Did Jesus mean Sheol when he said to the thief "Today you will be with in Paradise?"

What about other scripture that indicates Jesus went to be with his father when he died (such as "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit").

 

Agreed, but please know that, other than here, I do not debate this subject to this degree. To me the truth is - whatever happened - Christ died and arose triumphant over death and hell of His own accord .

True. And honestly if you take A.T. Robertsons approach it leavs you with Christ being in Sheol (to him it is the spiritual world itself - heaven and hell) and still with the Father. :laugh:

That one to me isn't a hard one.
The phrase was a common one and simply meant that I put my well being or safety absolutely in your care. Much like if a child is dieing and the parent tells the EMT I'm placing his/her life in your hands.

 

Marcia,

Let your heart be at peace. The soul of Jesus Christ went into the presence of God the Father when he died just as the souls of all believers. Scripture is very clear on this regardless of what anyone else says. They do not speak infallibly under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Scripture does.

Ecclesiastes 12:7. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

 

Lu 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits (souls) in prison; (by sin)

20 Which sometime were disobedient, (sin) when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

1Pe 4:5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick (alive) and the dead.

6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, (OT Saints/Abraham's bosom) that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man (OT/NT) cometh unto the Father, but by (through) me.

The way I interpret these verses is to mean that Jesus preached to the "Souls" in Abraham's bosom, since they had never heard of him and no one goes to heaven except through Jesus,

These same "Souls" are the ones Jesus took when he "Ascended".

Heaven wasn't opened until the "wages of sin" was paid, then the "KEYS" to both Heaven/Hell was given to Jesus.

(all Judgment committed to Jesus)